othing personal at all. Just that bringing up the Crusades which happened over 1000 years ago (and not a single American citizen was involved) has nothing to do with Islamic terrorists attacking America, Great Brittain, Spain, and others today.
And judging all Muslims by the actions of people in Afghanistan is like judging all Modern Christians by snake-handling revivalists. Jim Jones also claimed he was a Christian....as have countless members of hate groups (the KKK was a major political party for much of the 20th Century). Are there militant Muslims in the U.S.? I'm sure. But there are plenty of militant Christain militia groups who'd love to take down our government too. Hate groups are alive and well in this country.
There is more in common than separate with most monotheistic religions. The Old Testament is a pretty hard fundamentalist look at life (Abraham...kill your son to show your loyalty to me), as opposed to the New Testament (turn the other cheek). Even the end of the Christian Bible has some pretty strong imagery about laying waste to anyone who would oppose the Glory of God.
Hate is based in emotion, and very seldom in logic. Too bad we're not all Vulcan.
"Also, if this isn't a new Christian ethics vs. Muslim ethics battle, what's it about? We both know that the 9/11 terrorists were Muslim, and seeked to harm the US because it was outside the Fundamentalist Muslim view. Christian zealots are no different. ...."
Christian zealots are VERY DDIFFERENT. THEY DID NOT FLY A PLANE INTO THE WORLD TRADE CENTER AND KILL 3000 PEOPLE.
Compare zealots all you want. Compare crusaders from another century all you want. THEY DID NOT HIJACK PLANES AND KILL 3000 AMERICANS.
I do not think we kill people if they do not convert to Christianity TODAY.
Grimmbass wrote:
..."the KKK was a major political party for much of the 20th Century..."
Oh?
Gee I forgot, who did they nominate for the 1960 Presidential election. I musta have missed that one. Who was their veep candidate?
Could you list all the candidates they ran for electoral office for the 20th century? Just for the historical record.
The KKK, also known as the Knight's Party, was quite influential during the first part of the 20th Century. Although not usually a "ballot party," the KKK succeeded in getting politicians elected, most notably Republican Edward Jackson, who was elected Governor of Indiana in 1924 with KKK support. That was the first official I found, though I'm sure their are more out there.
I never said that hate groups overly controlled major elections: I said that it was wrong to judge entire religions by the actions of extremists. The 1997 World Almanac states that there were just over 1 Billion Muslims in the world at that time. Jewishworldview.com states the same figure.
If 1/5 of the entire world's population were terrorists, I think that we'd be in worse trouble than we're in. The guys who flew planes into skyscrapers were terrorists and Muslims just like Jim Jones was a cult leader and a Christian. People do bad things in the name of their faith every day. That doesn't make their religions inherently evil.
An American group called the NRA uses logic similar to mine: guns don't kill people, PEOPLE kill people.
] disagree with your stance that we shouldn't regard the past ills of religions. He who forgets the past is doomed to repeat it.
" That doesn't make their religions inherently evil",
Agree, we cannot say an entire religion is evil because of the actions of extremists.
What about when the laws of the religion say a man must be killed because he would not convert back to that religion. Is that evil? And this is happening TODAY, not 1000 years ago as pointed out in earlier posts.
The point I am trying to make is to question whether Islam is really a Religion of peace. Can Islam exist with other religions and beliefs TODAY?
It seems studying the history of Islam shows they don't play well with others, during the Crusades or TODAY.
Well, duh. The entire Mideast has been at war nonstop since Mesopotamia. You can calm one country down for a decade or so, but there's always a dickhead waiting to ruin it. So GWB is going to install a "Free Democratic" government and stabilize the whole region? How do you spell the "wrong answer" sound from the game shows? Bzzzt!
As a reformed childhood Christian, I can tell you they are no better than Muslims. Jim Jones was Christian. 800-1000 dead. Koresh and The Branch Davidians were Christians. Children incinerated. Out west, there's a city where the old guys run the teenage boys out of town so they can "marry" the teenage girls (that means have sex with them), and girls can't go to school. They're into their second generation of Godly child-molesting.
I grew up around several Klansmen... they are largely churchgoers, and begin and end each meeting with a prayer. They feel their personal relationship with Christ is obviously more important than anyone else's because it's THEIRS. That's a running theme in Christianity: you can go to Heaven, too, but I'll be front row center, because only I really GET it, and if you don't believe the way I believe, you're going to be sadly surprised when I LIVE FOREVER. I'm not buying it.
Fundamentalism is a fervent belief that only you have the real answer, only you know the real truth. Einstein said that time is based on the observer, and I think that reality is the same. You see a different version than I. When you think your version is the only one that matters, Christian or Muslim, I'm not the one with the problem. Cheers.----->JMS
"Koresh and The Branch Davidians were Christians. Children incinerated...."
Yes children were incinerated, not because they were Chirstian (if you wanted to call psycho Koresh a christian). Slick Willie Clinton using Janet (child burner) Reno incinerated those kids. Now if you think Clinton and Reno were Christian, then you can say Christians incinerated them.
And I don't remember anyone holding a gun to the followers of Jim Jones, making them follow him to S. Africa. I believe they went voluntarily.
When some Christians hijack a plane and fly it into some buildings in the Middle East and kill 3000 Muslims, let me know.
Then I will agree with you there are no differences.
And let me know when Christians cut the heads off of innocent people while yelling "Allah Akbar". Then there will be no differences.
Missed me again, Joe. David Koresh burned his own. You know, the ones he was deflowering when they hit 12 years old? I know you wanted that Clinton reference (hasn't been president for years, dealt with a GOP congress after '94, can't blame him for Iraq). Janet Reno did NOT order the place set ablaze. Also while Waco was going on, the administration was being criticized for being too soft and allowing it to go on too long. They weren't killed BECAUSE they were Christians, they were whacko Christians, and proved my point that Christianity vs. Islam is a battle of mentally ill vs. mentally ill.
Jim Jones talked a bunch of nutjobs into killing themselves for God. Sound familiar? So Christianity is somehow better? So the body count was higher, is that what matters? Okay, Coalition Forces have taken 30,000 Iraqi lives looking for WMD's, unseating Saddam, installing a "free" regime, or whatever the reason will be next week.
None of the 9/11 guys were Iraqi. The guys who did it are in Afghanistan, making "We Punk'd The American Infidels" video's. ------->JMS
How do you know Koresh was doing all that? You heard it from the media, the Christian hating liberal media. Where did they get their info...form the FBI who was controlled by Janet Reno. Wako was her responsibility, but really Clinton's. You might be one of the 100 or so people who still believe Clinton.
I'll stop bringing up Clinton to kick around if you don't bring up examples of where he murdered American citizens.
The Jim Jones mass suicide was a cult gone bad, and pretty non-Christian. But they did not kill any Muslims did they? Tey just killed themselves, harmed no one else. I would say that is better than Muslims killing innocent Americans.
Where did you conjure up the figure that we have killed 30,000 Iraqis? Oh, the anti-Bush, anti-war, criminal liberal media I guess. So it must be true. Maybe the 25 million freed Iraqis and the 1 million murdered Iraqis (if they could) appreciate what we are doing?
the "guys" who did it are Al Queda. Al Queda is in Iraq. We are fighting and killing them there.
Al Queda are followers of Islam, which is going to kill a man because he converted to Christianity. Maybe the "guys" in Al Queda did not have to go too far form their religious believes to commit murder and terrorism on us.
I know there will be more posts on the moral quivelency of us naughty Christians and those peace loving Muslims.
Anyone interested in what went down at Waco should see the video, "Waco: Rules of Engagement". Accept its conclusions or not, the video brings up some interesting evidence
I'm not going to name names. I'm not going to point fingers. But some of the comments in this thread are seriously making me re-think who my friends are. I'm very disturbed after reading this thread.
Where did you hear Koresh wasn't doing all that? The media, the neocon, corporate-loving media who won't report on Bush's partying past or the steady train of mistakes he's made, or the Nixon-like administration he presides over. Where do they get their info? From the Karl Rove single-party powergrab machine. Koresh could have given up his illegal guns (I'm all for enforcing existing gun laws instead of creating new ones), but he decided shooting back would be better. He decided for his flock of mentally ill sheep and their CHILDREN. If he had given up, he'd be out of jail by now, but his ego and narcissism wouldn't allow it. He had to take his property, the congregation, with him. Jim Jones, too. I grew up in the Assembly of God church, not big, pretty ones, tiny splinter ones. I also attended some non-affiliated churches, some weird ones. One where the minister was completely untaught and unordained... he made a pile of money working on the Trans-Alaskan oil pipeline, and started a church. Then he molested a girl or two and had to leave Mount Union in what the locals call a "tight-ass run." He took his car and the clothes he had on, even left his wife, or else he faced death at the hands of a child's angry father. There was no liberal media involved in that one. I could go on and on. I was THERE, and I know the type of people these idiots are.
You can blame Clinton for everything, Rove knows he's popular, and he admittedly uses people's strength against them... he's been lead Clinton-basher since 1990 or so. I know better. I question authority.
When I was a kid, there was a Chrysler dealership in Trough Creek Valley, run by some very nice people. There was a family nearby who swore by Mopars. Each and every one of them would literally rather die than drive anything not made by Chrysler. If you didn't own a Mopar, you were stupid, and therefore less of a human being. Some of the guys in this extended family had some muscle-cars... Chargers, Challengers, a Super Bee, a Barracuda, etc. They'd get these cars into races, and sometimes they'd win. Mostly, they'd lose to a Camaro or a Trans Am. There was always a "reason" for losing the race... "the other guy cheated" mostly, but sometimes it was road conditions or maybe they thought they saw a cop. It didn't matter, they were a stubborn bunch, and it couldn't have possibly been THEM or their MOPARS. I watched that family drive their "K"cars, and other pieces of junk throughout the late 70's and early 80's, and then lost touch... I assume they're still driving Neon's and Dakota's, secure in the knowledge that they are smarter, more loyal, and better than anyone else in the Valley. I was always impressed by how they stuck to their guns. However, I read the specs and stats. I read Motor Trend. I watched Lee Iacocca on the evening news, struggling to keep his company afloat. I knew Chrysler was no better than GM, or Ford. Hell, I even bought a Horizon in '90. Worst car ever. I liked that family as people, but saw past the bias they had and proved them wrong... they never knew anything else, so why question it?
This true life metaphor has been brought to you by the Committee To Stop Religious Control of Everything. I'm Johnny Stevens, and I question authority.--------------->JMS
Pitting religions against each other, which one is evil (er) than the other is useless. especially the major religions of the world. we have lost more people in this world in battles,persecutions etc "In the name of God" than any other disaster. Everyone thinks that theirs is the best and we should go out to "convert" others to ours etc. it will never change. However has any one gone to S. Dakota and visited the Crazy Horse Museum? There on the walls and exhibits are The beliefs (religion) of the American Indian.
Its too bad most americans and foreigners don't take the time to visit or read about it. Not saying that theirs would be the best...but thay sure looked at life and the hereafter a lot different than we do.
J/K breathe everyone, just looking at how emotional this page is getting.
That's exactly why this shit will always be a problem, logic does not solve emotional problems.
"You are now either a clueless inbred brownshirt Teabagger, or a babykilling hippie Marxist on welfare."-Songsmith
I do want to point out that I don't consider myself to be Christian or Muslim, or any other religion. I don't hate Christianity, I just don't think it's somehow better than Islam. Don't like that? Hey, what can I say, I go out of my way not to disrespect people's belief systems, but I have a voice, too. You don't have believe me, or even listen, but I still have a right to say it.
We're apparently at war, and during wartime, the enemy must be demonized. Remember how "evil" the Japanese were in the movies of the time? Native Americans? Russians? Germans? Well, now we're including new groups: anyone not espousing Judeo-Christian "ethics"... non-conservatives... anyone who disagrees with the New McCarthyism. Oh, and Muslims. Some of them deserve it. So do some Christians. End of rant.--------->JMS
I won't use that nasty hate word, so who do liberals dislike the most?
Carl Rove
George W. Bush
Muslim terrorists
I perosnally think its a toss up among liberals that post here.
There is a global news story about an Islamic country ruled by Islamic law. The laws of that country are going to kill a man because he converted to Christianity. I post this story, to remind us that this same "religion of peace" as its practicioneers prefer to call it, is the religion of the largest terroritist group in the world.
Then the anti-Christian posts started, reminding us that 1000 years ago Chirstians were not all godly people. SO FRIGGIN WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE FACT AL QUEDA ATTACHED THE U.S. OF A.??????????
Then we were reminded of whacko cults, Koresh and Jones. After these sad episodes were over, did we have to go to war and find all the terror cells Koresh and Jones left all over the world, trying to end our way of life and freedom?? Did the nation go on a state of alert over these incidents? This might have been the WEAKEST argument I have ever heard of.
Did I ever say Chirstianity is any better than any other religion? no.
But just point out that Islam is the tree that modern day Al Queda springs from, and liberals go nuts on Christianity.
For the record, I am about as un-religious as it gets. I visit the inside of any church for the wedding or funeral of friends only. The hypocracy of the Catholic church turned me off about 35 years ago.
And anyone that defends Slick Willie Chicom Clinton that much is in self denial if they think they are not liberals. Don't worry, you might get Hillary, so get ready to turn in your guns.
Okay, okay, I'm a big ol' Commie Socialist homo-lovin' babykiller liberal. I give. Uncle. Look everybody, Joe's RIGHT!
Now, doesn't that feel good? Don't you feel safe? Ain't life sweet?
Just yankin' ya Joe. For those of you reading, Joe and I actually hang out in real life, no kidding. We have different politics, but dig music. Let this be a lesson to you: neither of us actually hurt one another. Good points were made, but I think this thread's run it's course. I'm tired... so tired. ---------->JMS
TJKelly bought it and loaned it to me. Very well acted film that deserved the Oscar nominations. I can't imagine Brokeback was any better, just gayer, which is a real plus in Hollyood. Anyway, they portrayed June Carter as a complete angel, and it's my understanding that she had many of the same addictions... however, it wouldn't have done anyone any good to sully her name... she was his angel. She toured the country from birth, back when that was far more difficult than it is now, it owuld be miraculous not to at least a little warped. Great film, a classic.---->JMS
songsmith wrote:TJKelly bought it and loaned it to me. Very well acted film that deserved the Oscar nominations. I can't imagine Brokeback was any better, just gayer, which is a real plus in Hollyood. Anyway, they portrayed June Carter as a complete angel, and it's my understanding that she had many of the same addictions... however, it wouldn't have done anyone any good to sully her name... she was his angel. She toured the country from birth, back when that was far more difficult than it is now, it owuld be miraculous not to at least a little warped. Great film, a classic.---->JMS
I really liked Walk The Line but had problems with Phoenix. He did a great job movie starring (that's kinda like acting, but only one line at a time), but I had a problem watching Caesar play guitar and had to shut my eyes and think of what Johnny really looked like.
...Oh, the freedom of the day that yielded to no rule or time...
Can I tell you something?
I got to tell you one thing.
If you expect the freedom that you say is yours.
Prove thet you deserve it.
Help us to preserve it
Or being free will just be
WORDS and nothing more.
...Oh, the freedom of the day that yielded to no rule or time...
---------->JMS
