youth hunters...

[Jim Price]

While an analogy might be made between hunting with irresponsible hunters in the woods and driving on roads with irresponsible drivers; I would note that you can usually see irresponsible drivers and take responsive action before they hit you; not so for an irresponsible hunter.

Again, I'm not anti-hunting or anti-gun, it's just not my cup of tea.

I agree that it could be a constructive experience in a child's development to allow them the responsibility of trying the hunting experience and giving them that trust for the first time. Under the close supervision of a responsible parent/guardian, I could see where it would be beneficial.

Unfortunately, not all parents are responsible. If you didn't before, please read my account of the dysfunctional dad who took his kids fishing in this edition of "The Final Cut" (http://www.rockpage.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=7358). Would you trust this father taking his kids into the woods to hunt? I wouldn't. Most parents probably would be responsible; but it's the ones like the guy I described that concern me.

ON A SIDE NOTE: While I don't side with nosurrender, I am deleting the namecalling part of RAM Z's post. With Rockpage Ron's approval and by the request of a number of Rockpagers, I am cracking down on the flame wars, namecalling and bickering on this site, and am going to be an equal opportunity deleter/thread blocker. So I'm deleting the derrogatory name reference, in compliance with the rules that everybody agreed to when they first registered to post on this site.

[AtoMikEnRtiA]

My .02..

Hunting is a passtime in which under most circumstance it is done in the name of an un-fair advantage. My big problem with hunting is not hunting for game, or hydes, or prize trophies.. but the manner in which the "thrill of the kill" takes place..

You are using a high powered rifle, slaying an animal without the ability for that animal to fight back. Do I feel this way about bow hunting? Not as much because bow hunting requires an immense amount of accuracy, precision, and knowledge of the minor yet complex physics to the procedure. You show me a man who will slay a deer with a slingshot, or a knife - and I'll show you a true man..

now.. as far as allowing younger kids to hunt - I personally have a problem with 12 year olds hunting. At 12 years old, you are not mature enough to a level for me personally to entrust you carrying said high powered rifle. Most 12 year old boys at that time are very vengeful, and could very easily see blowing somebody away as an easy way to eliminate them as a problem. That said - I do agree with taking a hunters' education course before obtaining a license.. problem with that is - the testing isn't complicated enough and that allows kids to just sit there sleeping during the education process, they can take the easy test and obtain their license to kill animals. I dont trust a child with a firearm.. and I am VERY Pro-Gun control (but I also understand that gun control means it will only regulate who gets and who doesnt get a gun.. most gun-enthusiasts hear "gun control" and immediately think of england when gun control was implemented, and the government went into homes and took ALL guns.. gun control does not mean you will lose your 12 gauge shotgun.. it just means the asshole with a felony cannot get a handgun, and i see no problem with that..) but I respect hunting as a lifestyle for most, and it's cool.

My point is.. if i dont feel a 12 year old should operate a gun - i sure as hell dont feel a 10 year old should even operate a gun with their fingers. My opinion - hunting should be legal at age 16 - same age as driving an automobile.. now like JP said, there are differences between a car and a gun - but at the end of the day.. one thing is the same.. discipline and control. I'd rather a 10 year old drive, than a 12 year old pull a trigger.. no matter what.

[RAM Z]

What if the drunk guy in the car is pulling out of a side road or alley and you don't see them ? How many people that are in accidents acctually see it come'n ? Trust me when I say I've been in more car crashes than I can count on my fingers and toes and I can tell you guys this much, most of them involving other cars, I never saw them come'n and I'm a very attentive driver ! I didn't say anyone was "against" hunting nor was it my intent to piss anyone off with my post . I'm sorry and embarassed J.P. that you would have to delete anything I might post , I totally apologize for that but , in return I just wish more people would have seen it before it was deleted, honestly . NS has started more crap with people on here and hijacked more threads of good topic with complete nonsense , blatent remarks and personal attacks , so yes I fell victim to her nonsense once again and maybe posted something I shouldn't have , but to me it seems that nobody seems to care about that though , IMHO , but I could be wrong. So with that being said , "No Surrender" here is the only apologie you will ever get from me , sorry ! My apologies also to my fellow Rockpagers for break'n the rules one time. It won't happen again !


Atomik, did you not read my post at all ? It's not about whether or not you are for or against hunting in general or gun control. Unfair advantage?
I guess you can say what ever you want about it but , hey , the Indians used to drive large heards of buffalo off of cliffs where they had no where else to run , killing hundreds of them at a time , is that unfair also ? You can not compare one person's lack of responsibility with all of the people like me who are responsible and do things the right way. I don't remember any kids sleeping in the saftey course and besides if they were I don't belive that an instructor would pass them , honestly , do you ? I do agree that the course should be way harder than what it is and maybe if they pass this law , it will be . As for bow hunting there is more irresponsibility there than any where in the hunting enviornment IMO . Alot of people don't practice enough throughout the year and think when hunting season comes around they can just go out and "HARVEST" not "KILL"( btw ) a deer. I can almost bet more deer and or turkey are wounded by bow hunters than anyone else in the woods and I'm not against nor do I feel all bowhunters are this way for the record . It's just alot harder to shoot someone with a bow than a firearm that's why you don't hear about it . In my opinion kids today would be much better off learning responsibility and respect by being in the outdoors with a parent than by thier parents letting t.v. and video games teach them the ropes ! Like I said before " have some faith" kids can be way more responsible than you know if given the proper guideness and sometimes more so than us adults .

I shall dig up some "Facts" about accidents involving kids and hunting and I think you will find that most accidents are caused by adults and not so much the kids . No one ever thinks about the idea that some of these accidents occure because of people shooting where there is nothing around to stop the bullet if they miss what they are shooting at and I'm sure it happens more than we hear about . I'll see what kind of stats I kind find about this and post them as long as this thread isn't locked out before I can do so .

I do not want this to turn into a "flame war" by no means ! Anything I said is my personal opinion , and that alone , that is and was my only intent by bringing this topic to all of your attention , so please for the love of God , stick to the topic at hand and keep your opinions come'n .

Thank you for hearing me out and sorry about that "C" word Ron and J.P. it won't happen again , I promise , that was uncalled for I guess and once again I apologize for opening my big mouth ! Please don't lock this thread because of a couple of things that were said that shouldn't have been said . This is a good thing to discuss , I think , and for the most part should be a civilized debate .

Thank you SavageHeart for agree'n with me and stay'n on the topic at hand .!

[AtoMikEnRtiA]

no i read it RAM Z - and i stated, that what i had to say about un fair advantages wasnt the point to my post.. which is what led into my thoughts on 10 yr olds having a gun

[RAM Z]

Yes I understand Atomik and your point has been noted ! I'm not singling you out btw but, there is no need for any opinions on gun control or views on whether or not any one thinks hunting is good or bad, fair or unfair, just if you think it's a good or bad thing to let kids younger than 12 hunt , which once again, is still the topic at hand right ? If you wanna dicuss those things start a different thread about it o.k. , that's all I'm asking dude , so don't take it the wrong way .

[no surrender]

RAM Z, apoligy accepted.

My point is two in numder:

1) Guns have no redeeming value at all. Soul purpose of a gun is to propell a hunk of lead at sickening speed, KILLING SPEED, speeds which no human could do on there own. Purpose of shooting this lead is to injury, maim, KILL another living creature. And DO SO at great distance and with great eficinctcy!! WOW, nice purpose there

Guns make it to easy to hurt and kill

2) 10 or 12 (or even 18 year old) kids have no business handling a dangerous weapon. they dont have emotional maturlity or understanding what they got there. Many adults don't have a lick of sense either.

I agree the cat's out the bag now everyone has guns but i wish we could go back in time and stop guns in first place. world be a lot safer place if we could have prevented them, imo.

[RAM Z]

Thank you NS for accepting my apologie ! Your second point is maybe the first one I can see and maybe for once you could start replying to things that way for a nice change for the better. Good Job and see how easy it is, you'll find that people will treat you with much more respect when you go about things in that manner.

I'm impressed, really , I am!

[no surrender]

Thank you NS for accepting my apologie ! Your second point is maybe the first one I can see and maybe for once you could start replying to things that way for a nice change for the better. Good Job and see how easy it is, you'll find that people will treat you with much more respect when you go about things in that manner.

I'm impressed, really , I am!

my first point is my best one, imo.

i despise guns. they make it to east to do harm.

[Grammar]

my first point is my best one, imo.

i despise guns. they make it to east to do harm.

It is in my opinon that my first point is my best one.

I despise guns. They make it too easy to do harm.

You're welcome.

P.s. That one was a little difficult since I had to contend with a prepositional phrase that really wasn't connected to anything.

[RAM Z]

Now, now NS , as "Toona" would say you're doing it again ! You won't lure me into a debate about this any more on this thread topic of ; "Youth hunters". Please, if you would , start your own thread about gun control and why guns are bad ,or I will and we can go at it all day if you would like oakey ,doakey ......................................... eeeeeeeeshhh ,hissssssssssssssssss, keeeeeeeeeeeerrr hissssssss ( lil' bit of STATIC there) ..... It would be A GREAT HONOR for me to debate you about guns sweetheart ! ( please note : that last thing is meant in a typical sarcastic manner of course !)

[no surrender]

ok, sorry, but i do think what i say here is a corolarry to your topic but i sttarted a new thraed out of deference to you.

look forward to your thots on my thread

[RAM Z]

Why thank you ! OMG could it be I could 've triggered change ?.......................stay tuned! This may get interesting.

[Banned]

I went hunting with my dad earlier than twelve, but that was back in the 60's. I first went hunting with a gun, at age 12, a twelve guage single shot with punkin ball.

I think age 12 should remain now for hunting. Age 10 is the traditional age for the BB gun.

JP, as for those hunting fatalities, it usually happens at Turkey season, where the hunters are dressed in camo, with no blaze orange on. I do not even go into the woods in Turkey season. Any hunter who accidently shoots anything but the intended game should pay some major consequences. For the amount of hunters in Pa., it actually is very rare.

The discussion of our Second Amendant rights should have nothing to do with hunting. Apples and oranges.

We all have the right to own arms. Hunting laws are state based and usually based on game seasonality and population density.

[RAM Z]

UCJ ,that was very well said and I couldn't agree more .

See how it's done NS, back and forth AND on topic!

[Banned]

Peace in this world has been won through the use of guns. Evr hear of WW I and WW II?

With the ability of avery American citizen to own and use arms, the USA is the leader of the free world.

What did Hitler do before attacking the rest of Europe? He banned private gun ownership and had all private guns confiscated. Bet a few million Jews could have used a gun for protection.

Interesting thing about most gun laws proposed by the gun grabbers, they use almost the same wording Hitler used in the 1930's.

You are in fine company NS.

[no surrender]

Peace in this world has been won through the use of guns. Evr hear of WW I and WW II?

With the ability of avery American citizen to own and use arms, the USA is the leader of the free world.

What did Hitler do before attacking the rest of Europe? He banned private gun ownership and had all private guns confiscated. Bet a few million Jews could have used a gun for protection.

Interesting thing about most gun laws proposed by the gun grabbers, they use almost the same wording Hitler used in the 1930's.

You are in fine company NS.

this WORLD has never been in peace. thanks to "guns"

[byndrsn]

I don't know why I want to throw my 2 cents in because I am not a hunter, but I am a gun owner and support the NRA.

My belief is very simple: The government has no right legislating the raising of children. They keep trying to do it with motorcyclists (keeping minors off of bikes as passengers). Let the parents raise their children. It should be determined by the parent (along with the hunter's safety course) weather or not the child should be able to partake in this activity.

Personally, I would never want my child out on the first day of hunting when there are a lot more hunters in the woods, but I would NEVER want a law stating that they would not be allowed to.

The problem is this - TOO MANY people think the government needs to help us decide what is right for ourselves. THAT IS JUST MAKING A LOT OF STUPID PEOPLE THAT CAN'T THINK FOR THEMSELVES.

I say let the people do what they want and those that are too stupid to know what is dangerous or irresponsible will eventually take themselves out of the gene pool.

And, NS, for your information here and in your other post about guns - I really don't want to "FEED" you, but you could use an education - Look into crime rate statistics in Australia over the last decade or so. Before gun control and after gun control. Look at the jump in crime numbers that occured when the government decided to take guns from innocent citizens. Also, along the same lines, look at states (like Florida @ 10 years ago) that adopted giving out permits to carry concealed - and see how the crime rate when down afterwards. Look into the Facts over uneducated speculation!!!!

Urbs

[JeffLeeper]

When I was a little guy , we literally lived off of what my Dad shot.
A lot of the time , we were eating venison or rabbit...
That's just the way it was back then , and I'm not all THAT old....

You can have my East-End Hoagie when you pry it from my cold , dead hands....

[bsaller]

i also think, if we all carried bazookas the crime rate would signifigantly drop. i mean really, who wants to fuck w/ someone with a bazooka?

A guy with a tank!

[Banned]

I don't know why I want to throw my 2 cents in because I am not a hunter, but I am a gun owner and support the NRA.

My belief is very simple: The government has no right legislating the raising of children. They keep trying to do it with motorcyclists (keeping minors off of bikes as passengers). Let the parents raise their children. It should be determined by the parent (along with the hunter's safety course) weather or not the child should be able to partake in this activity.

Personally, I would never want my child out on the first day of hunting when there are a lot more hunters in the woods, but I would NEVER want a law stating that they would not be allowed to.

The problem is this - TOO MANY people think the government needs to help us decide what is right for ourselves. THAT IS JUST MAKING A LOT OF STUPID PEOPLE THAT CAN'T THINK FOR THEMSELVES.

I say let the people do what they want and those that are too stupid to know what is dangerous or irresponsible will eventually take themselves out of the gene pool.

And, NS, for your information here and in your other post about guns - I really don't want to "FEED" you, but you could use an education - Look into crime rate statistics in Australia over the last decade or so. Before gun control and after gun control. Look at the jump in crime numbers that occured when the government decided to take guns from innocent citizens. Also, along the same lines, look at states (like Florida @ 10 years ago) that adopted giving out permits to carry concealed - and see how the crime rate when down afterwards. Look into the Facts over uneducated speculation!!!!

Urbs

Great Post!!!

I could not agree more about the role of government in our lives.

You Sir are a libertarian.

[byndrsn]

Great Post!!!

I could not agree more about the role of government in our lives.

You Sir are a libertarian.

Really?

I alwasy thought I was conservative. ALthough, I've had my doubts even about that lately.

I guess I need to look more into it. But, I can tell you that if even if I become a full fledged Libertarian - I would still vote conservative if I thouht the Libertarians didn't stand a chance to win because I wouldn't want to waste my vote so a pansy assed liberal would win!!! (did I say that out loud?)

[SavageHeart]

I agree with much of what's been said, but.....

I say let the people do what they want and those that are too stupid to know what is dangerous or irresponsible will eventually take themselves out of the gene pool.

In the case of hunting, I don't agree with this. Unfortunately those that are "too stupid...or irresponsible" will take out other people too.

[RAM Z]

byndrsn ,you make a great point about motorcycles and such and I also think the same way!

Great post man.

[Banned]

Great Post!!!

I could not agree more about the role of government in our lives.

You Sir are a libertarian.

Really?

I alwasy thought I was conservative. ALthough, I've had my doubts even about that lately.

I guess I need to look more into it. But, I can tell you that if even if I become a full fledged Libertarian - I would still vote conservative if I thouht the Libertarians didn't stand a chance to win because I wouldn't want to waste my vote so a pansy assed liberal would win!!! (did I say that out loud?)

Yessss, and it was great.

I used to be a conservative, but found out there were no politicians to vote for. What happens is that they get power, and get the inside the beltway mental disease, and vote like liberals.

It is a tough call every election, to vote for a libertarian who has no chance to win and thereby practically give my vote to a liberal, or to vote for the republican who is about 50% of what I want.

It is a shame it comes down to the lesser of two evils. Its this damned two party system, which leaves little choice.

[byndrsn]

I agree with much of what's been said, but.....

I say let the people do what they want and those that are too stupid to know what is dangerous or irresponsible will eventually take themselves out of the gene pool.

In the case of hunting, I don't agree with this. Unfortunately those that are "too stupid...or irresponsible" will take out other people too.

Well, that is why I had the smiley face immediately following that statement because it was meant to be a joke. I agree with you when it comes to hunting idiots will most likely hurt or kill someone else.

But for all other things - let them take THEMSELVES out of the gene pool!!!