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Dave
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Post by Dave »

lonewolf wrote:I edited my statement to make more sense and correct the timeframe. You are right about Netware being stable, but they were dragging their feet with windows integration and Unix/AIX/IRIX integration was nearly non-existant. It was OK in an office environment, but it wasn't going to fly with engineering workstations.

I am running servers with NT and 2003 Server and the only time I have to reboot is when I add software that requires a reboot or when I add hardware. I haven't had stability problems with Windows servers. After 25 years in the business, just lucky, I guess.
Yep, I agree. After all the years I was loyal to Netware I finally jumped ship about 5 years ago. I was supporting Netware and NT platforms all over the place. Novell was very slow in a lot of things and M$ flew right by. I have since migrated almost all the Netware clients to NT/2000 and now 2003.

Back in the Netware days, an NT server couldn't match the uptime of a Netware server or the performance. When Win2K came out I started seeing performance issues with Netware servers in Win2K workstation environments. That was the end of it for me.

Novell was great in its day, but now it is a Microsoft world.
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Post by lonewolf »

Jeff, how do you like Server 2003? I haven't had a chance to work with it yet.
Windows 2003 server is the best thing Microsoft has come out with since DOS 6. Unfortunately, my company won't shell out the bucks to upgrade the older NT 4.0 servers and Exchange Server 5.5, so I can't use Active Directory or Server 2003 as a PDC. An NT Server must be used as PDC in a mixed environment.

Rule number 1: All the servers in a domain must be upgraded to 2003 Server before you can use all the capabilities, including AD.

My only other complaint is the parade of exploits and related security patches--the price of using "Hacker's Choice" (Microsoft). Its not nearly as bad as NT Server was though. Most fixes don't require a reboot after applying them and auto-update works very well.

If you have 75 seats or less (that leaves me out), look at Small Business Server 2003. It has Server 2003, a mini-SQL server and Exchange server bundled really cheap.
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Post by FatVin »

Lone Wolf wrote:
If it was the intent of the Founding Fathers to limit the type of arms we have a right to bear, don't you think it would appear somewhere in the constitution?
It is historical fact that during the House debate leading to the vote to ratify the Bill of Rights, a member of the Georgia Delegation (whose name escapes me) is reported to have said (this is not an exact quote) "If we set down specific rights on paper, I fear that in the future, some fool will think that those are the only rights that citizens are supposed to have."

In the 1780's the best technology operated by the most elite of soldiers could only manage 2 shots per minute, here in the 21st Century, a drunken monkey on crack can squezze a trigger and blast off one hundred times that number of rounds in the very same minute with a cheaply made, poorly maintained, piece of shit. I think the founding fathers would have noticed the difference and it defies common sense that we don't.

I'm not talking about hunting rifles and I'm not talking about hunter's rights because I beleive in hunter's rights but even hunter's rights come with responsiblities. In the midst of partisan politics and ideological one-upsmanship we have forgotten that.

RIGHTS COME WITH RESPONSIBILITIES

Lone Wolf wrote:
the 2nd amendment gives the states the right to maintain nuclear weapons as a balance of power with the Union's military.
surely you are not in favor of this,

I don't know about you, but I shudder to think what would have happened if Governor Orval Faubus had nukes to back up his desire to keep Arkansas schools segregated in 1957.

Would you have given the A-bomb to David Duke had he been elected Governor of Louisiana in the 80's?

Would you have given the bomb to Jesse "The Body" Ventura?

Is this the flower of conservative thought?

The Federalist Papers were a stop-gap until a real Constitiuion could be concieved and considered and voted on, they were not meant to last, one of the things that make the US Constitiution so durable is the ablitity to change it and interpret it's meaning for the times we live in. That was ALWAYS the intent of the Founding Fathers.

and yes, those were MY words before
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Post by lonewolf »

The Federalist Papers were a stop-gap until a real Constitiuion could be concieved and considered and voted on, they were not meant to last, one of the things that make the US Constitiution so durable is the ablitity to change it and interpret it's meaning for the times we live in. That was ALWAYS the intent of the Founding Fathers.
You are confusing the Federalist Papers with the Articles of Confederation. The Federalist Papers were the U.S.A.'s 1st political ad campaign promoting the federal constitution that is now in place. These were written by Alexander Hamilton, James Madison and John Jay and are considered by every legitimate political scientist to be the explanation of intent regarding the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights. It is required reading if you want insight into the Constitution. Unfortunately, I don't think its required reading for federal judges.
RIGHTS COME WITH RESPONSIBILITIES
Yes they do. I'm a responsible, productive, tax paying citizen. I have also been fully trained and rated in firearm safety and usage. Why can't I own an automatic weapon as guaranteed to me under the 2nd amendment?

There are 3 answers to this question:

1. The real one.
2. The typical one.
3. The correct one.
Quote:
the 2nd amendment gives the states the right to maintain nuclear weapons as a balance of power with the Union's military.

surely you are not in favor of this,
Ooops Vinny, you pulled a Michael Moore style sound bite (message bite?) :lol: . That statement should read: In principle, the 2nd amendment gives the states the right to maintain nuclear weapons as a balance of power with the Union's military.

No I'm not in favor of that, it is an illustration of how far the 2nd amendment has been diminished with the hunting rifle argument. This amendment doesn't have a damn thing to do with hunting.
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Post by Banned »

lonewolf wrote: In the 1780s the highest tech military equipment was the rifled cannon. Even today, an 18th century cannon would still be in the same league with grenade launchers and mortars. If it was the intent of the Founding Fathers to limit the type of arms we have a right to bear, don't you think it would appear somewhere in the constitution?
Not to discount the wisdom of our founding fathers, but if we lived by 18th century standards today, you'd hear less talk about how cute John Edwards is because women wouldn't be able to vote. You would, however, be able to run down to your local Wal-Mart and buy some black folk. The world, she keeps a-changin'.

Speaking as a taxpayer who doesn't have a swank job in the arms industry, I'm glad the states don't feel a need to maintain state of the art armed forces. It would take more than slot machines to bring the Pennsylvania nuclear arms program up to speed. :D

(For the record, I support responsible gun ownership.)
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Post by lonewolf »

Jimi Hatt wrote:
lonewolf wrote: In the 1780s the highest tech military equipment was the rifled cannon. Even today, an 18th century cannon would still be in the same league with grenade launchers and mortars. If it was the intent of the Founding Fathers to limit the type of arms we have a right to bear, don't you think it would appear somewhere in the constitution?
Not to discount the wisdom of our founding fathers, but if we lived by 18th century standards today, you'd hear less talk about how cute John Edwards is because women wouldn't be able to vote. You would, however, be able to run down to your local Wal-Mart and buy some black folk. The world, she keeps a-changin'.

Speaking as a taxpayer who doesn't have a swank job in the arms industry, I'm glad the states don't feel a need to maintain state of the art armed forces. It would take more than slot machines to bring the Pennsylvania nuclear arms program up to speed. :D

(For the record, I support responsible gun ownership.)
Thanks for the ROFLMAO....this thread needed it. Here's to Three Mile Island and PA's nuclear weapons program! :wink:

John Edwards can thank the 19th amendment for the hair vote and Wal-Mart will have to limit their merchandise because of the 13th amendment. Ain't it funny how we can change the constitution thru due process?

Times may be a changin', but the Bill Of Rights isn't just blowing in the wind...
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Post by songsmith »

Wal-Mart limiting their merchandise... now that's ROFLMAO. Even the 9-year-olds in Bangladesh sweat shops are stopping production of censored CD's to laugh at that one.----->JMS
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Post by BDR »

I can play solitare AND minesweeper on my computer.

Just trying to fit in with all the computer tech talk.

r:>)
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Post by FatVin »

Lone Wolf wrote:
I'm a responsible, productive, tax paying citizen. I have also been fully trained and rated in firearm safety and usage. Why can't I own an automatic weapon as guaranteed to me under the 2nd amendment?
First of all, you are not guarenteed the right to own an automatic weapon under the second amendment but even if you were

Why do you want an automatic weapon?

What is it good for?

Are Rabbits and squirrels really so troublesome that an AK-47 is required to deal with them?

maybe a grenade launcher or a flame thrower would be better?

maybe a nuke would solve your groundhog difficulties.

The neighborhood kids game of touch fooball will be made so more exciting by your neighbor's land mines.

I'll bet a claymore will keep away those pesky Jehovah's witnesses

Quote:
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


The amendment doesn't specify a definition of arms, you must admit. by your own logic, you are constitutionally enititled to own a hydrogen bomb.

Why settle for some wimpy M-16 when you can be a nuclear power with the blessing of our Founding Fathers.

Well, that's just silly, isn't it? No one needs a personel A-bomb for home defense, or a flame thrower, or a grenede launcher.

but the 2nd amendment says that the right shall not be infringed, so let's all call Walmart and demand that they they start stocking nuclear weapons, they can put them in the sporting goods department next to the coleman cooking stoves.

I know I'll feel a whole lot safer knowing that the bar-drunks are gonna set off a 40-megaton blast because I won't play "Freebird".

There should reasonable limits to any rights, it's just common sense, you still can't and shouldn't yell "Fire" in a crowded theater.

There are many areas of life where Government can and often does overstep it's bounds but this isn't one of them and don't make me go net surfing to find all those statistics that show clearly and obviously that in Countries like the UK where there are VERY strict gun control laws they have a smal fraction of the the gun related deaths and injuries that Americans do, we've heard it all before.

AK-47s and M-16's and uzis, etc were designed to kill people, that's all they are good for, and unless you are a soldier on active duty, in harm's way, you don't need one, either, and the sooner we can get these weapons off the street, the safer we will all be.

If you really need a gun to defend your home, won't a good ol fashioned Winchester, 15 shot, lever action, repeater do just as well, if not better, than an AK? It was good enough for John Wayne.
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Post by songsmith »

I think the whole desire to own a big, powerful automatic weapon has more to do with the small size of your pee-pee than anything. While I don't see the need for an AK-47, however, my gun is MY gun, and I relish the right to own it, carry it, and if need be, use it. More laws won't work, IMHO. Bad guys don't give a tinker's damn about more laws, which is why they're bad guys. Discuss.----->JMS
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Post by bassist_25 »

I'm sure most of us are familiar with that one "Wildest Police Chases" video of a man running amok in a tank. Do we all remember that damage he did with one tank, without even firing the cannon? Now picture a bunch of corporations (because that's probaly who could afford them) with armouries of M1A1s and MIRV systems. In the words of Red Foreman, "I want you to think about this; now I'm not saying it won't work, but just think..........THINK HARD!".

And terrorist have already proven that they can hi-jack airliners and fly them into buildings. Let's pretend that the same weapons our military have, are perfectly legal to be purchased by civilians.

*phone rings*

Sales Clerk: Hello, Systec Nuclear Manufactuers. How can we help you?

Osama Bin Laden: Hello, I was wondering if you still had any of those 125 megaton ICBMs still in stock.

Clerk: Yes we do sir!!!

Bin Laden: Great! I would like to place an order for two of them.

Clerk: Okay, this month we are running a promotional special. If pay by debit card, we offer free silo rental for 6 months. That's a 7000 dollar value!!!

Bin Laden: That sounds great.

Clerk: Thank you sir. Is there anything else?

Bin Laden: Yes, I was wondering when the new mustard gas canisters would be coming in.

Clerk: There has been a delay with our supplier, but we are expecting them in next Tuesday.

Bin Laden: Good, thank you for your service.

Clerk: Thank you, your new ICBMs will be arriving in 3 to 5 days.
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Post by lonewolf »

Thank you Vinny for giving us the "typical" answer.

The typical answer has no legal basis.

Anybody want to venture on the "real" and "correct" answers?

BTW, that was only a rhetorical statement. I do not wish to own an automatic weapon and I don't advocate WMDs for the states. These are just examples to illustrate a point.
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Post by lonewolf »

First of all, you are not guarenteed the right to own an automatic weapon under the second amendment
Why not?
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Post by ToonaRockGuy »

Quote:
First of all, you are not guarenteed the right to own an automatic weapon under the second amendment


Why not?

Simple. When this right was guaranteed, there were no "multi-shot" muskets. Good god.

Gun control is simple. It means being able to hit what you are shooting at. Anyone that needs an HK-MP5 for home defense or hunting is pitiful to begin with.
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Post by lonewolf »

ToonaRockGuy wrote:Quote:
First of all, you are not guarenteed the right to own an automatic weapon under the second amendment


Why not?

Simple. When this right was guaranteed, there were no "multi-shot" muskets. Good god.

Gun control is simple. It means being able to hit what you are shooting at. Anyone that needs an HK-MP5 for home defense or hunting is pitiful to begin with.
They had rifled cannon. Individuals owned them. The 2nd amendment did not limit or except them. That argument does not hold water, but keep trying, you may get it.

Hint: I saw the answer in regards to the Patriot Act on another thread.
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Post by ToonaRockGuy »

Jeff,

I'm not arguing for or against, nor am I starting any kind of flame war here. I'm just stating my own beliefs, along with some fact. (Fact: there were no repeating weapons when the 2nd Amendment came to be.)

I am a veteran, as are many of the posters here. I own a few guns. I keep them in working order, well oiled, locked up and safe, away from my children. I am a member in good standing of the NRA. But I also believe that if you need a freaking AK47 to protect your home, you're a moron. If you need an AR-15 to go deer hunting, you need mental help. If you can't protect your family with a simple 9mm Browning Hi-Power (blatant plug), then maybe you should march your ass down to the range with some simple ball ammo and practice.

I'm in the (sometimes) weird position of being both a gun owner and for gun control.

I do believe that guns don't kill people. I do believe that stupid people with guns kill people. And I believe that if you need to purchase a semi-automatic weapon every month, you have serious problems.
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Post by lonewolf »

I'm not either Kevin. I'm not even just talking about the 2nd amendment here. The 2nd amendment just happens to be the right that was trod upon longest and most. Since it protects something that scares many people, it was also the easiest to infringe upon. Several generations have passed that just accepted that machine guns, sawed offs and silencers are not "needed", so we don't have the right to keep them. We were just brought up that way. Necessity is not the test of a human right. We do not need to sit here and voice our opinions, but we still do, and we have the right to do it.

My opinion about what an ordinary citizen needs for protection is about the same as yours, but if you've been misled to believe that the Second Amendment was not intended to protect the weapons affected by the National Firearms Act of 1934, take a look at the test case U.S. v. Miller, 1939. That was the last case the U.S. Supreme Court issued a direct Second Amendment ruling.

The law was initially struck down in the Arkansas Supreme Court, but when the U.S. government appealed to the Supreme Court, "no attorney appeared before the U.S. Supreme Court to argue the Miller/Layton side of the case, nor was a written argument submitted in their behalf. In fact, in a telegram sent to the Supreme Court from Arkansas, Miller’s attorney Paul Gutensohn suggested that the case be decided only on the evidence
presented by the other side — the U.S. government."

If the Supreme Court ever decides to give a fair hearing to the Second Amendment grievances the people have been trying to bring to the court, this flimsy opinion would be easily overturned. I think a lot of people would be SHOCKED!
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Post by Banned »

ToonaRockGuy wrote: I'm in the (sometimes) weird position of being both a gun owner and for gun control.
Nothing weird about that. Gun control doesn't have to mean "anti-gun". Maybe you shouldn't say that you support gun control, because that can carry some negative connotations . . . say that you promote "sensible gun ownership". :D

Heck, my main beef with the NRA was when they started putting those weird "jack-booted thugs are coming to take your guns" ads in the gun magazines, basically spreading paranoia about the government. While they may draw a certain amount of support from the fringe element, I'd like to think that a majority of NRA members are sensible folk who aren't barricaded in their attic so the big, bad government won't come get them. The same government that the NRA woos using your money. Never made much sense to me.
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Post by lonewolf »

Here, my friends, is the "correct" answer to my question. It is the opinion of the Supreme Court on U.S. v. Miller, which is the "Roe v. Wade" of gun control. I cut out the reference material to shorten it up, but these are all the words of the court opinion. I boldened the part of the opinion that made this act and all other gun control acts constitutional:

Considering Sonzinsky v. United States blah, blah, blah...

--the objection that the Act usurps police power reserved to the States is plainly untenable.

In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State, 2 Humphreys (Tenn.) 154, 158.

The Constitution as originally adopted granted to the Congress power--

"To provide for calling forth the Militia blah, blah, blah."

With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view.

The Militia which the States were expected to maintain and train is set in contrast with Troops which they were forbidden to keep without the consent of Congress. The sentiment of the time strongly disfavored standing armies; the common view was that adequate defense of country and laws could be secured through the Militia--civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion.

The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. "A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline." And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time.
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Post by lonewolf »

And so, my friends, the legal reason why we can't own automatic weapons is that a sawed-off shotgun is not considered to be ordinary military equipment. Spooky, huh? Had Mr. Miller been carrying a machine gun instead of a sawed-off, we might not have any gun control laws whatsoever.

I hope I didn't piss anybody off too much in this thread...that was not my intent and if so, I apologize. I wanted to provoke thought about the government, how it justifies its actions and how it is slowly bleeding our rights.
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Post by FatVin »

In making your point, you are missing THE POINT and the point is that Law should be based on Common sense.

Even you agree that insisting on the right to own automatic weapons and arming the individual states with WMD's flies in the face of reasonable thought.

about two years ago, I came home around 10 at night and was stopped by a shotgun toting neighbor who told me that somebody had robbed the Dairy Queen about a half mile from my house, I didn't have the heart (or the guts) to tell him that I wasn't quite so worried about the jonesing addict who probably left the dairy queen heading straight for a place to score dope and shoot up as I was worried about the hillbilly neighbor waving around a double barrel 12 gauge in the dark.

Not everybody who owns a gun is a criminal by any stretch of the imagination but neither is everybody who owns a gun a reasonable responsible citizen.

Songsmith has a pretty good point about gun laws but It seems reasonable to me that by outlawing these weapons, it'll be a little easier for the police to tell good guys from bad guys, don't ya think? (Only the bad guys and guys in uniforms will have these weapons) it sure would cut down on incidents like Ruby Ridge and Waco.

Will that infringe on your right to bear arms under the 2nd Amendment? Probably, but since a responsible citizen wouldn't want or need an automatic weapon, anyway, what do you care?

It's like the "Men having babies argument" in "Life Of Brian", Yes, Stan has the right to have babies but since he can't actually have babies what good is protesting?

The counterargument is the government is infringing our rights, where ya gonna draw the line?. IMHO, Automatic weapons are pretty good place. IMHO, my right to not get shot 30 times in the ass overrules your right to own an Uzi

Automatic weapons in the hands of untrained, unregulated personel represents a hazard to public safety and it's time we took a second look at the second amendment

The framers of the Constitution were (in legal thinking terms) products of British Common law. British Common Law is supposed to be based on Common Sense and the needs and the welfare of the community it governs, given that, I don't think it's such a big leap to suggest that had Jefferson and Adams, et al, been able to forsee Uzi's and Ak's on the street I think it's Very reasonable that they would have done something about it.

Like or not, agree with it or not, the United States Constitution is a living, breathing, changing, thing, the framers built in the idea of amendments because they knew that times will and always do change, don't believe me read the following....

Article V

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, or, on the application of the legislatures of two thirds of the several states, shall call a convention for proposing amendments, which, in either case, shall be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of this Constitution, when ratified by the legislatures of three fourths of the several states, or by conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other mode of ratification may be proposed by the Congress; provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any manner affect the first and fourth clauses in the ninth section of the first article; and that no state, without its consent, shall be deprived of its equal suffrage in the Senate.
The framers planned for amendmends, they are built in to the process of a Constitutional Governement, and so is repealing them, otherwise let's get rid of the 21st Amendment and take away your beer!

Times have changed since the year one thousand eight hundred and eight, the 2nd Amendment is outdated and requires. .er . .ah Amending
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Post by witchhunt »

Are you saying that if I 'aven't got a womb then I can't 'ave an AK-47?
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Post by FatVin »

and it's no one's fault, not even the Romans!
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Post by lonewolf »

In making your point, you are missing THE POINT and the point is that Law should be based on Common sense.
THE POINT is a fantasy. Contrary to your and my opinion of what the law should be, the Law IS what is deemed constitutional by the Supreme Court, whether it makes sense or not. U.S. v. Miller is a perfect example of the court not making sense.

Its a good thing that the ruling is only presently used to uphold the 1st federal gun control law. If it was applied literally to all weapons today, it would go something like this:

Weapons not protected under the 2nd amendment (not usable military weapons):

.22
shotgun
.25
.32
9mm short

Weapons protected under the 2nd amendment (usable military weapons)

.3006 with suitable scope
.45 semi-automatic
AK47
UZi
M16

Doesn't make much sense, does it?
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Post by FatVin »

Lone Wolf wrote:
Contrary to your and my opinion of what the law should be, the Law IS what is deemed constitutional by the Supreme Court, whether it makes sense or not.

You know what, you're right

and because you are right maybe, we the people should elect a president who will put someone on the bench who'll do something about it

Defeat George Bush!
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