How do you roll?

[f.sciarrillo]

I am digging this thread

Jeff, the way you are talking, you just hook the guitar up the processor and run it direct into the board. Ya know, seeing that a lot of the processors have preamps built into them, I can that happening. But I still think a half stack would make it sound better.

I only go straight to the board when I go to jams like Wed. night at Pelle's.

I cannot stand the sound of an electric guitar going thru PA horns, but its tolerable at jams. We roll the treble off a lot to get rid of some of the horn buzz.

When I gig, its more like plugging the processor into the FX return on a solid state guitar amp.

GT10 -- solid state power amp -- guitar speaker cabinet. I mic the cabinet when necessary.

There was a time when I liked playing modelers thru a tube power amp (Mesa 20/20 & Marshall 2020), but with the latest modelers, a tube power amp just makes it muddy. I suppose you could tweak out the muddiness with the processor, but that's just more work. Tube amps take extra work each time you set up and you only get one or two tones out of them. I suppose that's OK if you are an original band looking to get your own sound, but it bites if you play a variety of covers because you don't expect to be the 1st player in history to get signed at age 50.

I only play my Koch Studiotone when I'm feeling nostalgic, LOL.

I will have to try hooking direct up - processor -> amp -> cab again to see whether I think different or not. I still think a half stack would sound better, though.

[Jasaoke]

I think one thing people don't understand about sims is that they aren't usually designed to sound like any amp. They are designed to sound like a recording of an amp, or (in the case of Line 6,) simulate how the circuitry in an amp affects a signal. Sims do not push 100watts through 4x12inch speakers, so in that respect, they don't sound anything like an amp. The best digital pianos in the world don't sound like real pianos. That's because they don't have 800lbs of mahogany vibrating in the same room as you. But when you hop in the car and turn on the radio they both sound great. I think that some people expect that a digital pedalboard will make their pants flap like a high-watt monster but it can't. A lot of what people think is the "sound" of their amp is just the energy of being in a room with something that vibrant.

[orangekick]

I have heard plenty of people argue that they can make a processor sound like any amp. Sure, I have no issue with that at all. I have heard the Fractal Audio Axe-FX, I know that it can be done. The audience doesn't care. They only care that the tone is pleasant to listen to and compliments the music.

Personally, the issue that I have is plugging in to a processor. It doesn't "feel" right. The push and pull that I normally get with a tube amp just isn't there. This might be simply because I'm still lost in the old school method of turning the amp up as loud as I can stand it and working from there.

[songsmith]

I think one thing people don't understand about sims is that they aren't usually designed to sound like any amp. They are designed to sound like a recording of an amp, or (in the case of Line 6,) simulate how the circuitry in an amp affects a signal. Sims do not push 100watts through 4x12inch speakers, so in that respect, they don't sound anything like an amp. The best digital pianos in the world don't sound like real pianos. That's because they don't have 800lbs of mahogany vibrating in the same room as you. But when you hop in the car and turn on the radio they both sound great. I think that some people expect that a digital pedalboard will make their pants flap like a high-watt monster but it can't. A lot of what people think is the "sound" of their amp is just the energy of being in a room with something that vibrant.

Plus one. Orange soda tastes kinda like orange, but only in an orange-soda kind of way. That said, I like orange soda. I still have OJ for breakfast, but orange soda quenches your thirst pretty well, too.
Would I still like to have a 15-watt tube-amp to plink on? Hell yeah! But every tube amp I ever gigged with let me down at some point, so I gig with... orange soda.

[f.sciarrillo]

What about a processor through a tube power amp? Like: guitar -> Processor -> Tube Power Amp -> Cab .

[lonewolf]

I think one thing people don't understand about sims is that they aren't usually designed to sound like any amp. They are designed to sound like a recording of an amp, or (in the case of Line 6,) simulate how the circuitry in an amp affects a signal. Sims do not push 100watts through 4x12inch speakers, so in that respect, they don't sound anything like an amp. The best digital pianos in the world don't sound like real pianos. That's because they don't have 800lbs of mahogany vibrating in the same room as you. But when you hop in the car and turn on the radio they both sound great. I think that some people expect that a digital pedalboard will make their pants flap like a high-watt monster but it can't. A lot of what people think is the "sound" of their amp is just the energy of being in a room with something that vibrant.

Actually, no, they are not designed to sound like a recording of an amp. That would be sampling-based and modeling is not sample-based. If it was, the quality of today's modelers wouldn't be much better than they were 10 years ago.

They are based around mathematical models that react to different input information. Over the years, these math models have been improved and refined to the point where there is virtually no difference between the analog and the digital. Duplicates? No. Characteristics? Yes.

As far as making pants flap, that depends on the power amp, the cabinet and the speakers. I chose Celestion Century G12 neo speakers because they have:

1) a crisper pick attack than other Celestions
2) very little coloration--kind of "vanilla" sounding
3) are twice as loud per watt than almost all other Celestions
4) super tight bottom -- no flubbiness
5) 4.5 pounds.

In other words, they are perfect for a compact digital rig. Their efficiency makes my 2-12 chambered cabinet just as loud as a 4x12 half-stack angled cabinet loaded with Celestion vintage 30s. Been using this rig for 5 years in 100 foot +- rooms just about every week and ended up having to turn it down most of the time. Something a modeler will do that a tube amp won't is allow you to EQ each sound to your cabinet. You can find its optimum chest thump frequency and make it chug louder than the bass drum with an 80s sound man....but at the stomp of a footswitch, you can shame the pants off of a blackface and then jump to a jumbo 12-string guitar.

At the same time, you can round off the bottom and completely eliminate flubbiness...something you can't do with many Marshalls or Mesas.

But how would I know that? I've only owned just about every tube amp series from both companies over the past 40 years. By the same token, I'll bet 9 out of 10 tubeheads can express their serious digital amp experience in terms of minutes, perhaps hours.

And Johnny, I don't drink orange soda. Its a Protein Rush chocolate shake.

[lonewolf]

What about a processor through a tube power amp? Like: guitar -> Processor -> Tube Power Amp -> Cab .

Until about 3 years ago, that was the best way to make a modeler sound better.

The latest modelers have taken that into consideration and as I stated before, a tube guitar power amp tends to make the latest modelers muddy and just causes more work in cleaning it up. I suppose that a high quality Hi-Fi audio tube amp might work a little better than a solid state amp, but why pay the extra $thousands$?

[bassist_25]

By the same token, I'll bet 9 out of 10 tubeheads can express their serious digital amp experience in terms of minutes, perhaps hours.

Perhaps there is something to what you're saying about programming modelers. However, Kenny uses two rack-mountable tube amps (a Mesa and VHT) and also has a Line 6 combo. He spends a lot of time tweaking and programming patches, almost as much as he spends actually learning a song. Even when using an extension cab with the Line 6 so he's pushing the same amount of air, I still hear a huge qualitative difference that's attributable to the power section of his tube rig. Sound engineers hear it too.

And there may be something to what Jasonoke is saying about recording versus live. Recorded music is much more compressed, so a lot of the effect of a tube amp is going to be lost through the medium. I've heard a lot of the software modelers that Keith uses, and they always sound really good. Live, however, every modeler has left me saying "meh" when it comes to anything more aggressive than a slight Marshall overdrive. A lot of it just sounds like a Rockman to my ears - not necessarily "bad," just not really my thing.

[lonewolf]

By the same token, I'll bet 9 out of 10 tubeheads can express their serious digital amp experience in terms of minutes, perhaps hours.

Perhaps there is something to what you're saying about programming modelers. However, Kenny uses two rack-mountable tube amps (a Mesa and VHT) and also has a Line 6 combo. He spends a lot of time tweaking and programming patches, almost as much as he spends actually learning a song. Even when using an extension cab with the Line 6 so he's pushing the same amount of air, I still hear a huge qualitative difference that's attributable to the power section of his tube rig. Sound engineers hear it too.

And there may be something to what Jasonoke is saying about recording versus live. Recorded music is much more compressed, so a lot of the effect of a tube amp is going to be lost through the medium. I've heard a lot of the software modelers that Keith uses, and they always sound really good. Live, however, every modeler has left me saying "meh" when it comes to anything more aggressive than a slight Marshall overdrive. A lot of it just sounds like a Rockman to my ears - not necessarily "bad," just not really my thing.

Actually, I was thinking of Kenny as the 1 out of 10 when I wrote that, lol.

So when was it that you heard my snakeskin rig?

[bassist_25]

LOL I'm sure Kenny would be happy to hear that, Jeff. He takes a lot of pride in his sound.

You really want to prove me wrong on this modeler thing. Did you play the snakeskin rig at the PACAG benefit?

P.S. For the record, Chris from This Calling uses a Behringer modeler with a solid-state power amp, and I always liked his tone. So maybe I do like some modeling.

[lonewolf]

LOL I'm sure Kenny would be happy to hear that, Jeff. He takes a lot of pride in his sound.

You really want to prove me wrong on this modeler thing. Did you play the snakeskin rig at the PACAG benefit?

OMG!

That was a 1999 vintage Boss VF-1 red box thru the PA. It wasn't even meant to be a guitar preamp. Heh, heh, heh, I still use it for Lonewolf.

Remember...

programming...

[lonewolf]

Are you getting all this Dave?

[tornandfrayed]

Yeah I am watching...

I think we are going to use something basic yet flexible through the clean channel of the Marshall. I think the "Evil Twin" is not appropriate for his playing style right now.

So we are going to mess with Korg AX3000G and see what we get. Might even try it in the EFX loop...

Thanks as usual for all the input...

Now If we could just get half the people who post on Rockpage to show up for a benefit show we could change the world...

Thanks Dan! And nice to meet you Mike, great fender shit and cool band...