I don't get it

[Arnold]

Bringing jobs back here is going to be tough. There are some that say that we have evolved through the "industrial Age" and through the "information Age" and now we are in the "talent Age". This would mandate that we all have access to the same info and the same tools, it is how you treat people and what you do with the tools that matters. Those who really have the "Talent" will rise to the top.

Then those dudes in Coinmonster will be some of the richest motherfuckers on the planet.

[RFBuck]

Stop the unions from killing this country and maybe we could make something of it. Do what they were originally used for...protect the worker instead of letting them F off on the job, get hourly paid smoke breaks, free health care, and other retarded stuff. We as people need to learn how to WORK for our wages and appreciate it...I know I do. I bust ass 14 hours a day and have minimal health coverage and that's it. I don't ask for nothing, and I don't need someone coming in filling my head fulla shit telling me what I need to be earning and what I deserve. I deserve to be able to work and pay my bills and I do just that.

[Jo money pig]

RFBuck Posted: Friday Jan 15, 2010 Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stop the unions from killing this country and maybe we could make something of it. Do what they were originally used for...protect the worker instead of letting them F off on the job, get hourly paid smoke breaks, free health care, and other retarded stuff. We as people need to learn how to WORK for our wages and appreciate it...I know I do. I bust ass 14 hours a day and have minimal health coverage and that's it. I don't ask for nothing, and I don't need someone coming in filling my head fulla shit telling me what I need to be earning and what I deserve. I deserve to be able to work and pay my bills and I do just that.

got news for old buddy the unions arent killing this country it's peoples lack of care and somes lack of giving a shit. The unions are only as good as the people in them. but without people standing together states like PA are able to do what they want to do .

[bassist_25]

Stop the unions from killing this country and maybe we could make something of it. Do what they were originally used for...protect the worker instead of letting them F off on the job, get hourly paid smoke breaks, free health care, and other retarded stuff. We as people need to learn how to WORK for our wages and appreciate it...I know I do. I bust ass 14 hours a day and have minimal health coverage and that's it. I don't ask for nothing, and I don't need someone coming in filling my head fulla shit telling me what I need to be earning and what I deserve. I deserve to be able to work and pay my bills and I do just that.

Aside from any philosophical beliefs about pro or anti-union, I'm sorry, Buck, but only 7% of the national private sector is unionized. In addition, the NLRA, particuarly the Taft-Hartley additions, makes it very difficult to establish a union. Even if the Employee Free Choice Act were to pass, I don't foresee a sudden resurrgence of unionization like when the Wagner Act was first legislated...at least for a while. Union's are particuarly weaker in recessions, because their lack of BATNA tactics during collective bargaining impasse does not give them much leverage. I just don't see Big Labor having the grip on the nation like you may believe.

As a neutral, I see both sides of the Right to Work controversey. On one hand, I understand why one wouldn't want to be part of a union and not in total control of your situation. On the other hand, is it fair to enjoy the benefits of a well negotiated CBA but not take part in the process, particuarly paying dues?

[witchhunt]

I bust ass 14 hours a day

I know this is a personal question and you don't have to answer, but where do you work 14 hr. shifts?

[gibson980]

Maybe if he was in a union he would be protected so he wouldn't have to work 14 hour days. Remember, unions basically became about because the employer treated their workers like shit.

If they treated them fair, unions wouldn't exist.

[whitedevilone]

Thats why capitalism is sucking here in the good old USA.

Its capitalism that is funding the hundreds of millions (it will eventually go into the billions) that we are spending to help them.

KaBang.Open mouth.Insert foot.

[Hawk]

I agreed with Joe in that Capitalism pays the bills for everyone including every government segment. However capitalism without regulations promotes greed. I think that's why he said it sucks. There is a lot of greed at the top of the totem pole.

[witchhunt]

I am not a rich man, nor am I at the poverty level. I really do want to help the the poor souls who are in need, so Goneforever and I have decided to buy a stockpile of dog and cat food and donate it to the Bedford County Humane Society because we can deliver it directly to the source. Rush Limbaugh says any money donated to Haiti through government resources will end up in Obama's pocket and I wouldn't want that. We all know Rush wouldn't steer us on the wrong path.

[tornandfrayed]

Thats why capitalism is sucking here in the good old USA.

Its capitalism that is funding the hundreds of millions (it will eventually go into the billions) that we are spending to help them.

KaBang.Open mouth.Insert foot.

Thats right! If it weren't for the greed inherent in the human condition capitalism would work great and we would all be better off for it>

[lonewolf]

Come on guys, capitalism is all about greed (and fear.)

Enlightened self-interest (the desire to accumulate wealth--aka GREED) is capitalism's raison d'être. Those who are fearless and bold enough to take the greatest risks reap the greatest rewards--or the greatest loss. Take that away and you no longer have capitalism.

What I have noticed is that every time the federal government gets involved with capitalism--by either action or inaction--we end up with a condition known as FUBAR*.

This is because while in their pursuit of wealth and power, politicians do not take personal risk--they risk the people's treasure and livelyhood. If things go bad, they point their fingers at the system or the corporations or the 535 or so other politicians. Their programs are not necessarily created for the people's benefit--they are created for enlighened self-interest of the politician. Can you say "Nebraska"?

How does this relate to the present situation in Haiti? A responsible government would maintain surpluses during good times to compensate for the bad. That way when emergencies arise, we are prepared to meet such challenges without causing further harm. If we had a budget surplus right now, there would be little reason to start this thread.

A responsible government would allow capitalism to operate freely with a minimum of enforced regulation and without the detrimental influence it has perpetrated during the past few decades. There is no better example of this influence than the recent real estate bubble that was created by the combination of artificially low interest rates and the super-easing of federally backed mortgage requirements. As a result, unqualified buyers rushed into the market and forced prices ever-higher to form an expanding bubble. It didn't take long for these unqualified buyers to burst the bubble with default. The effect of this mass default was the near-collapse of our financial system.

*Fucked up beyond all recognition.

[bassist_25]

What I have noticed is that every time the federal government gets involved with capitalism--by either action or inaction--we end up with a condition known as FUBAR*.

This is because while in their pursuit of wealth and power, politicians do not take personal risk--they risk the people's treasure and livelyhood. If things go bad, they point their fingers at the system or the corporations or the 535 or so other politicians. Their programs are not necessarily created for the people's benefit--they are created for enlighened self-interest of the politician. Can you say "Nebraska"?

While I don't disagree that some government programs ultimately have little social benefit, Jeff, but private interests gone wrong oftentime ultimately affect the innocent people as well. It comes down to the simple concept of social dilemma. It's one thing if one person lives and dies by his or her own greed. However, as more people pursue self-interest, when the stack of cards fall, it affects everyone, including both the self-interested and the people who had little to do with the greed in the first place.

Here's an example using an economic paradigm. Some guy buys a Humvee. That doesn't affect fuel prices at all. More people buy Humvees. Perhaps it has a positive affect on fuel prices as demand increases. Even more people buy Humvees. Oil companies cannot meet demand, and the supply curve shifts and equilibrium price of gas goes up. Meanwhile, I made the "responsible" decision by buying a Geo Metro ( ), and it takes $120 to fill my tank up because other people drove up equilibrium price on fuel due to their own self-interests.

[f.sciarrillo]

Capitalism is what this country stands for. And the Unions do not have to pay the Insurance tax now - Hence their meeting with the White House. Of course since they are the ones who helped get the President elected, they will be cut from it. Is it November yet?

Back on topic - If you do donate anything to Haiti, make sure you know who it is to first.. Don't trust anyone ...

[songsmith]

Come on guys, capitalism is all about greed (and fear.)

There is no better example of this influence than the recent real estate bubble that was created by the combination of artificially low interest rates and the super-easing of federally backed mortgage requirements.

You've completely ignored Big Banking's culpability in this, and the lack of govt oversight; the collapse wouldn't have been so acute, or wouldn't have even happened without these factors. Banks handed out mortgages to people who would NEVER have gotten so much money if institutions couldn't sell the bad risk to the next guys, in the form of credit default swaps and other derivatives that were illegal between The Great Depression and the year 2000. The fact that the SEC wasn't keeping an eye on trillions in transactions allowed the muckety-mucks to first suck the system dry, then amazingly go to the govt for even more money when the excrement hit the air-handling device. Even more incredibly, the people who did all this were rewarded for this grandest of thefts with billions in bonuses.
You can blame the little guy for daring to take advantage of lax rules, but you also have to blame both the guys who relaxed the rules, and the guys who profited from it, because they worked together on it.--->JMS

[PStl]

http://www.newsweek.com/id/231131/page/1

Haitians deserve to be helped in their rebuilding of their country. I only hope that as we help them, we let them do it. If we just go down and rebuild it, then leave, we'll just be perpetuating the problem.

In many ways, Haiti can be a case study for what problems can be solved by us, the UN, charities. They are like "the other side of the tracks" part of the community. Do you go and build them some nice housing projects?

No doubt, there was some great volunteers, missionaries, and charities helping them before this happened, and maybe they were turning the corner, I don't know. But hopefully, Haitians take this opportunity to rebuld from within, and one day they can finally say that they are free from the corruption that's plagued them for years.

[PStl]

Even more incredibly, the people who did all this were rewarded for this grandest of thefts with billions in bonuses.
--->JMS

...and Government Cabinet positions.

http://www.rollingstone.com/videos/player/31163379

[lonewolf]

Come on guys, capitalism is all about greed (and fear.)

There is no better example of this influence than the recent real estate bubble that was created by the combination of artificially low interest rates and the super-easing of federally backed mortgage requirements.

You've completely ignored Big Banking's culpability in this, and the lack of govt oversight; the collapse wouldn't have been so acute, or wouldn't have even happened without these factors. Banks handed out mortgages to people who would NEVER have gotten so much money if institutions couldn't sell the bad risk to the next guys, in the form of credit default swaps and other derivatives that were illegal between The Great Depression and the year 2000. The fact that the SEC wasn't keeping an eye on trillions in transactions allowed the muckety-mucks to first suck the system dry, then amazingly go to the govt for even more money when the excrement hit the air-handling device. Even more incredibly, the people who did all this were rewarded for this grandest of thefts with billions in bonuses.
You can blame the little guy for daring to take advantage of lax rules, but you also have to blame both the guys who relaxed the rules, and the guys who profited from it, because they worked together on it.--->JMS

1st of all, thank you for illustrating my point: Government, thru both action and inaction was the number 1 reason for the real estate bubble. While there was a small but highly publicized percentage of fraud, for the most part, the banks were just writing loans per government requirements. The banks were simply doing what the government told them they should do.

Its nothing but a populist myth that the big ole meany banks were responsible for the real estate bubble.

2nd of all, the real estate bubble and the financial liquidity crisis were mutually exclusive. From a cause and effect perspective, the real estate bubble was the cause and the financial crisis was the effect. Without the real estate bubble, there would not have been a liquidity crisis and we would never heard a thing about bank bailouts or toxic securities. The toxic securities would not have become toxic and the system would not have been driven to a standstill.

Of course, the real estate bubble was (and will continue to be) driven by this ridiculous government notion that everbody can own their own home. Its time for the government to get out of the real estate industry. Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac need to be divested thru bankruptcy and eliminated.

The SEC needs to enact mortgage requirements for a mortgage to qualify for addition into mortgage backed securities. All other mortgages are subject to state mortgage laws as they always have been and always should be.

The income tax needs to be made flat without loopholes for the rich and without a mortgage interest deduction. Yes, its time to slaughter the sacred cow before it slaughters us.

[RFBuck]

I know this is a personal question and you don't have to answer, but where do you work 14 hr. shifts?

I drive a coal truck for a living...and 14 hours is a short day. A lot of guys put more than that in.

Maybe if he was in a union he would be protected so he wouldn't have to work 14 hour days. Remember, unions basically became about because the employer treated their workers like shit.

They tried years ago to unionize the entire trucking industry...didn't hold together. Anyone who knows trucking in any form knows you don't follow regulations to the letter..or you might as well just go work at Sheetz. Some companies are unionized, but are very few.

And Paul...thanks for the info. You actually changed my opinion slightly and gave me some better insight. My soapbox just got a little shorter

[lonewolf]

What I have noticed is that every time the federal government gets involved with capitalism--by either action or inaction--we end up with a condition known as FUBAR*.

This is because while in their pursuit of wealth and power, politicians do not take personal risk--they risk the people's treasure and livelyhood. If things go bad, they point their fingers at the system or the corporations or the 535 or so other politicians. Their programs are not necessarily created for the people's benefit--they are created for enlighened self-interest of the politician. Can you say "Nebraska"?

While I don't disagree that some government programs ultimately have little social benefit, Jeff, but private interests gone wrong oftentime ultimately affect the innocent people as well. It comes down to the simple concept of social dilemma. It's one thing if one person lives and dies by his or her own greed. However, as more people pursue self-interest, when the stack of cards fall, it affects everyone, including both the self-interested and the people who had little to do with the greed in the first place.

Here's an example using an economic paradigm. Some guy buys a Humvee. That doesn't affect fuel prices at all. More people buy Humvees. Perhaps it has a positive affect on fuel prices as demand increases. Even more people buy Humvees. Oil companies cannot meet demand, and the supply curve shifts and equilibrium price of gas goes up. Meanwhile, I made the "responsible" decision by buying a Geo Metro ( ), and it takes $120 to fill my tank up because other people drove up equilibrium price on fuel due to their own self-interests.

Heh, heh, heh. In any other system, you wouldn't have to worry about the price of gas....you'd be riding a bicycle.

[bassist_25]

Heh, heh, heh. In any other system, you wouldn't have to worry about the price of gas....you'd be riding a bicycle.

That's a matter of degree and example. The same would apply to a horticultural society that didn't have gasoline vehicles. The point is that other people's greed is not always beneficial for everyone as some people would like you to believe.

[onegunguitar]

I know this is a personal question and you don't have to answer, but where do you work 14 hr. shifts?

I drive a coal truck for a living...and 14 hours is a short day. A lot of guys put more than that in.

Maybe if he was in a union he would be protected so he wouldn't have to work 14 hour days. Remember, unions basically became about because the employer treated their workers like shit.

They tried years ago to unionize the entire trucking industry...didn't hold together. Anyone who knows trucking in any form knows you don't follow regulations to the letter..or you might as well just go work at Sheetz. Some companies are unionized, but are very few.

I have 18 years of trucking under my belt,been laid off for almost a year and someone asked me the other day if I missed driving,my answer-nope. I'll go back to it only of I have to. Those 14 plus hour days aren't worth it,it only takes one accident with a fatality to end up behind bars for vehicular manslaughter. Running over your hours of service to make an extra couple bucks isn't worth it if ya ask me.

[lonewolf]

Heh, heh, heh. In any other system, you wouldn't have to worry about the price of gas....you'd be riding a bicycle.

That's a matter of degree and example. The same would apply to a horticultural society that didn't have gasoline vehicles. The point is that other people's greed is not always beneficial for everyone as some people would like you to believe.

Its not that people's greed is necessarily beneficial or harmful to anyone--it is simply the incentive that fuels capitalism. Don't forget the other necessary component: FEAR.

The only time when capitalism's greed hurts society on a macro level is when the overall society itself becomes greedy and fearless. That's what causes bubbles and that's why capitalism is very cyclical.

On the flip side, when society's fear exceeds its greed, we usually get a recession.

[bassist_25]

Heh, heh, heh. In any other system, you wouldn't have to worry about the price of gas....you'd be riding a bicycle.

That's a matter of degree and example. The same would apply to a horticultural society that didn't have gasoline vehicles. The point is that other people's greed is not always beneficial for everyone as some people would like you to believe.

Its not that people's greed is necessarily beneficial or harmful to anyone--it is simply the incentive that fuels capitalism. Don't forget the other necessary component: FEAR.

The only time when capitalism's greed hurts society on a macro level is when the overall society itself becomes greedy and fearless. That's what causes bubbles and that's why capitalism is very cyclical.

On the flip side, when society's fear exceeds its greed, we usually get a recession.

Interesting. How would one go keeping that greed and fear in balance, though?

[Hawk]

The only time when capitalism's greed hurts society on a macro level is when the overall society itself becomes greedy and fearless. That's what causes bubbles and that's why capitalism is very cyclical.

You left out the equally devastating greed of those at the top of the ladder. Corporate greed is worse kind of greed. They caused the recent bubbles with the help of no oversight and relaxed regulations. Right now the corporations are buying congress and running the country. They are more greedy than the whole of society.

[Banned]

Right now the corporations are buying congress and running the country.

Don't leave out your savior, B. Hussein. He has a boatload of ex Goldman Sachs and Fannie Mae fat cats as his financial experts. Probably no relation to those firms getting a Federal bailout, is there?