TOTALLY DISSED @ 30SOMETHING

[bassist_25]

Bad enough our tax money pays their wages.

That's one irony I didn't even realize until you said it.

[Banned]

Does the phrase, "Oh, o.k. sorry man" come to mind? Even if you don't like doing it...obey the rules.

[KeithReynolds]

Im not hopping on whatever bandwagon thats been implied here, but come on..obeying the rules at a club is a must. Any band who doesnt obey a club owners rules should think about their goals with music. If you piss club owners off, they dont book you. Which means you dont play out. If playing out in bars is your goal, I think pleasing club owners should be a top priority.
About the drink being taken outside...I dont drink and rarely go to bars unless im running sound, and Ive known you cant take drinks outside of bars for years.

I wouldnt take the attacks and "burning bridges" things to heart though. People really should be allowed to state their opinion without dictator-like responses.

[fullthrottle666]

i think you guys jumped on the OP a bit too hard. jesus lighten up life is too short

he was just looking for an explanation.

[hicksjd9]

It's essential to follow the rules at a club. I agree with that 100%. You guys should have followed them. That said, I'm not going to pull any punches or sugar coat this in any way. Claudio is a total douche. He has screwed over more bands than I can name. He is a cheat and a liar. Since when do we defend dishonest people...oh, wait, it's usually when we have a business agreement that we are making money on. But what about the people and bands who this guy has cheated over the years? One day, Rob, he is going to screw you and then you will understand. I thought calling them amatuers was uncalled for, especially in defense of Claudio

[KeithReynolds]

wow, JD, I certainly agree with some points there. You certainly had the balls to say what others think but wont say on here.

[Hawk]

I gave my $.02 on page one. But too many bands think that a bar is there to cater to the bands, like the owner owes you something. That's totally backwards. The owner owns the bar TO MAKE MONEY. (sorry I yelled).

They don't give a damn what you play or how good you are. If you can stand on your head and play Sweet Home Alabama and pack the place, you'll be booked on a regular basis. That's the business. You are hired to bring in people who are not going to be there otherwise.

If anyone expects a bar owner to be cordial just because you're a musician, get out of the business. To the owner, you are a necessary evil he has to hire for business reasons. Why do you think so many have turned to DJs ? Cheaper and LESS attitude ! You are no different than a waitress or a cook. You have been hired to do a job. Follow the rules or the boss speaks his mind. Deal with it.

Yeah, I know all of the complaints about Claudio. I saw many of the same complaints about Big John. Until you guys finally got him to give up and close Peter Cs.

Has Claudio ever book a band then canceled the band because someone brings more people (MONEY). Likely yes. Has any band ever canceled Claudio's because they got a better gig. Yes again.

If the bar owners had their own forum, think of all the bull they would talk about putting up with (some) musicians. I bet their thread would go for pages and pages.

I'm saying I know how owners can be. I know how musicians can be. But musicians (especially these days) need bar owners more than they need us.

Don't kiss any body's ass, but if you don't like him, just stay away and let others learn on their own.

Unless you want to beat up on every owner until there is no place to play. And you are the best advertising for a DJ.

I miss Peter Cs because John (like him or not) let many bands get their start there. And I always liked hearing the newest on the block.

Be thankful there is anywhere left to play.

[hicksjd9]

You know, Hawk, I might make some enemies today and I hope you do not take this as an attack (because it's not), but I am so tired of the bar owner pity party that goes on here regularly. I know shit is hard. How bout this? Musicians have it hard, too. Boil your band pay down to an hourly and see what you come up with (practice time, loading/setup/tear down time, performance time, travel time). We make about a buck an hour for our efforts and to be screwed on top of that adds insult to injury. I realize that some musicians don't keep their word or cancel gigs. I'm not one of them and IF I WAS, IT WOULD BE FAIR FOR OTHERS TO WARN BAR OWNERS OF IT!!! My grandfather said a long time ago that if a man's word is no good, he's no good. I agree with that 100%.

I've known good and bad bar owners, but since when do they deserve immunity for treating their "workers" (i.e. bands) dishonestly and with disrespect. An example of great (and honest!) bar owners are John at Osceola Hotel or even Claudio's uncle Aldo. Those are guys who deserve respect because they are fair with the people that work for them!

Saying that we can't warn other musicians about bar owners that have screwed us is like buying a lemon from a dealership that says "deal with it" and then being expected to let others "learn for themselves" about the place. If it were me, I would want fair warning so that I could make an educated decision before I buy a car there and I would be an asshole not to tell a friend to watch themselves. That said, the friend can make their own decision as to whether they will buy a car there or not. Same goes for bars and musicians.

[Hawk]

Sure, you had a bad experience with Claudio. So let's tell everyone not to play there. Put the word out in a public forum so we can close the guy who screwed you down. Don't tell anyone what happened, just call him names.

I (not long ago) had a guy PM me and rip into me because we were having a benefit at 30 and Claudio screwed him. Turns out his band didn't draw and Claudio canceled two other booked gigs. It's business.

Now how about the guys who Claudio hasn't screwed ? If he never screwed me, am I allowed to tell people that ? Or is your word the final word ? I've heard other rumors but since this is a public forum and not a private conversation - I won't go there.

What bands play for ($) is another topic altogether. Bands screw each other by such low prices. Today you get $100 (unless you pack a place like VTE for example) a guy and some think that's cool. That's about what I was getting in the 1969 1970 era. But we're screwing each other today...

If your attack is against BDR, I saw his post as, not as standing up for Claudio, but (and I disagree) what he perceived as a discourteous musician. We both know Claudio is not tactful when someone carries out a drink. I've seen him jump on people for it. And Rob's point was, "How many times does he have to tell you not to use the load in door".

I don't blame Ray Wagnor or Claudio. It started out with miscommunication and went down hill from there.

If Claudio screwed you, rather than name calling, just state what happened - to Claudio. And if it can't be resolved and you feel a need to publicly criticize an owner, then, publicly explain exactly what he did to you.

And you're not making an enemy with me. I'm just stating my case. Like I said, many like you stated their case and closed Pete's. So it's not that I don't like you, as much as, there aren't many places left to play. Kissing up ? No...being sensible.

[hicksjd9]

It's far from name calling. I would have taken it up with Claudio, but the door was closed and locked in our faces so he wouldn't have to pay. Look, good business is paying what you agree upon. Bad night or not, if you say you will give someone a specific amount, then you give it. There are other places that honor their word, in fact, over the past 8 years, I've only had three bad experiences with places not honoring their deals. If we opened it up to specific stories about that place, this thread would be a MILE long.

Of course I think people should make their own decisions about playing there. I just want them to make informed decisions. Let me just remind you of what I said in my previous post, "That said, the friend can make their own decision as to whether they will buy a car there or not. Same goes for bars and musicians."

Just like any business, you are free to share your feedback with others, whether good OR bad. Of course I'm not the final word, but I have the guts to call it like I see it.

I also have no problem with Rob. I just thought he didn't handle his response with very much tact, though I agree with him 100% that they should have followed the rules of the club. That's good business. Just because we don't receive courtesy doesn't mean we shouldn't give it. That's what it means to be an honorable businessman.

[Hawk]

It's far from name calling. I would have taken it up with Claudio, but the door was closed and locked in our faces so he wouldn't have to pay. Look, good business is paying what you agree upon. Bad night or not, if you say you will give someone a specific amount, then you give it. There are other places that honor their word, in fact, over the past 8 years, I've only had three bad experiences with places not honoring their deals. If we opened it up to specific stories about that place, this thread would be a MILE long.

Of course I think people should make their own decisions about playing there. I just want them to make informed decisions. Let me just remind you of what I said in my previous post, "That said, the friend can make their own decision as to whether they will buy a car there or not. Same goes for bars and musicians."

Just like any business, you are free to share your feedback with others, whether good OR bad. Of course I'm not the final word, but I have the guts to call it like I see it.

I also have no problem with Rob. I just thought he didn't handle his response with very much tact, though I agree with him 100% that they should have followed the rules of the club. That's good business. Just because we don't receive courtesy doesn't mean we shouldn't give it. That's what it means to be an honorable businessman.

"It's far from name calling." "Claudio is a total douche." Huh...

Yeah, you're right, Cladio does do that (cut pay if he looses money because you didn't draw). But he's also been known to throw in extra if you do draw a crowd. So tell everyone the whole story. I'm not saying it's right, it's what he does. So state it like this when in public. "If you don't draw, you will get a cut in pay, if you draw a crowd, your pay might get padded.

So it sounds like you never did talk to Clausio about it ?

You have no problem with Rob...cool. EXCEPT in his defence of Claudio ? That's when you thought it was a good time to hijack the thread and rag on Claudio ? Because calling him a liar and a cheat...has nothing to do with the thread.

Let's see... Claudio pissed off a band because they broke the rules and Claudio had no tact. I think I'll join in and agree the rules need to be followed "But with that said" I'll let everyone know that he...I'll call him names...

Nothing personal with you man. I just enjoy a good verbal joust and I miss my political venting sometimes. No I'm not trolling you, I'm just sticking up for a bar that still has LIVE MUSIC...at least for now...

[hicksjd9]

Go to town with it, man. I think everything I said was reasonable. If you need any more information, I'll be happy to share it. There's no sense in talking to Claudio about it; it's how he does business. If I felt a heart to heart with the man would make a lick of difference, I would have already done it. In fact, I tried calling him the next week to discuss the situation and I was hung up on--twice. If you don't like what I said, that's fine; all I can do is share my experience as a warning to others to beware. I'm not saying not to deal with Claudio, but musicians should know that he doesn't always keep his word when it comes to bands. I will not play there. Period. That's me. You can do as you see fit.

Some names are deserved. Douche was going to far, but don't let it distract you from the message that matters here, and that is that Claudio has cheated me and many others. Whether they speak up on here or not is up to them. This is a public forum and most people won't do that here. I probably shouldn't have said anything either in hindsight, but it seemed like the author of this post was getting railroaded and I shared a similar, negative opinion of Claudio's business practices, so I chimed in. I won't backpedal or hedge anything I have said so far in order to smooth things over. It's my experience and I shared it. Plain and simple.

I don't really like when the word hijack gets thrown around in forums as a way to take away from the issue at hand and get the upper hand in an argument. My first two posts do not fit the definition of hijacking. The were on topic. Our little back and forth DOES fit the definition of hijacking. So If you'd like to discuss it further, let's be courteous to the person who created the thread and do so via PM.

[PanzerFaust]

Oh how fondly I remember my first lovers quarrel with Claudio over which doors to lock or unlock, and I can remember it like it was yesterday him yelling at all the open beers going in and out of the place....

And to think it was about 24 years ago........

Nice to know Altoona still has some nice "Welcome to the Real World" traditions still in place.....

[Hawk]

You stated your case. I stated mine. We each stand by what we say. If you thought it necessary to "chime in" with an attack on Claudio because Ray had a negative experience, so be it.

Attacks like yours are a detriment to live music IMHO. Ray seemed to be venting...not making an attempt to be as vicious as you.
With that said...I have no reason to PM you.

[REDillon]

Not that this is gonna matter at all, BUT tell the band UPFRONT the rules & regulations if they are from out of town. How the hell are they supposed to know unless someone tells them the rules and regs in a sweet and inviting tone?

Okay, are they doing it because they're just being dicks or is it because they don't know any better? In this case, they didn't know. If you lay out the friggin rules on the get go, then there shouldn't be a problem, but if you don't know the rules how can you chastised for breaking them? Come on people. Stop being hard asses and help each other out. You all have a fucking cell phone strapped to your heads, TALK to each other.

Over and out Teddy Bears.

[Hawk]

Not that this is gonna matter at all, BUT tell the band UPFRONT the rules & regulations if they are from out of town. How the hell are they supposed to know unless someone tells them the rules and regs in a sweet and inviting tone?

Okay, are they doing it because they're just being dicks or is it because they don't know any better? In this case, they didn't know. If you lay out the friggin rules on the get go, then there shouldn't be a problem, but if you don't know the rules how can you chastised for breaking them? Come on people. Stop being hard asses and help each other out. You all have a fucking cell phone strapped to your heads, TALK to each other.

Over and out Teddy Bears.

I'm sure Ray is a good guy. But in his opening post he stated, "We got harshly warned several times."

Well, how many times does it take until you get it ?

EDIT: Damn I spend too much time on here. I'm going outside with the wife and the neighbors and have a beer. And anyone is welcome to join me.

[hicksjd9]

Hawk, I guess one of the best ways to try to take away from someone else's argument is to make them out to be a villian. Over your last couple posts I've been called a vicious (really? vicious?), name calling, thread hijacking, attacking, detriment to live music. For someone who takes the moral high ground on name calling, do you READ your own posts?

I gotta laugh at the irony of calling someone a name caller. Isn't that name calling?

To everyone else who has suffered through reading these last few posts, I promise that no matter what Hawk's reply, I will not post back or hijack this thread even further. Even if he comes back with something really good.

[Flaw]

The first time i drank at 30 something it was my friends 21 and she wanted to get a picture of everyone taking a shot. Well i was behind the bar and i took a drink, which is against plcb rules, and yeah Claudio was a little bit harsh with me about it. It did make me feel uneasy about spending the rest of the night there. I later found that he is a really cool dude. I think its bar owners in general about it in PA. They almost treat you like an employee of theirs instead of customers its how they keep their asses in good graces with Plcb. So dont sweet it.

[BDR]

Ok. First, Ray and I hashed out anything we needed to in two PMs within twenty minutes of this thread going up, one from him and one back from me. Both were grown up in nature and to the point. I could be wrong but I feel if we were to meet, it would probably involve a gentleman's handshake and pats on the back. Having said that, please people, read words. This had nothing to do with the specific venue or club owner. Take out 30 Something and Claudio and insert whatever. Doesn't matter. My point was, and remains, that if you don't know it's wrong to take a drink outside, then you shouldn't be in this racket. Everything you do is an extension of the bar because you're an employee. To become upset about being told about it, no matter the tone that was used, is ridiculous to me. My only other point was if you're told not use a door once, that's all it should take. Ray said in the first post they were warned several times. Again, ridiculous to me. The attitude that was taken I found amateurish. I called him on it. Period. I don't give a shit if you like Claud or not. It doesn't apply at all to what I was trying to say. For the record, we do not get rich at Claud's place. It is probably one of our lowest paying rooms. And we never get a guarantee there. Never asked for one. But I can say Claud has always paid us what we earned each night there. We play it because it's a great room with a great sound guy and system, we're paying our Altoona dues there and the staff is great to us - always has been. I hoped to point out to Ray and his band where I saw a mistake in how they handled things. I think, due to the adult exchange we had via PM, that he saw what I was saying, at least I hope he did, that it was nothing personal and that I was trying to help him to not shoot himself in the foot in the future. Anything else said about my part in this thread I could care less about. JD and I know each other personally and I think he knows I'm not offended by anything he said in response. Well, at least I didn't get threatened with violence via PM by a tough guy due to this thread, lol. Love my bros in Hair Force. And I'll always stand behind those who stand behind us, whether you play all originals are just "jukebox junkies" like us. lol. Unity!! r:>)

[bfoust]

... and this is usually where a mod closes this thread... Ron/JP?

[bassist_25]

... and this is usually where a mod closes this thread... Ron/JP?

Yeah, and this turned out to actually be an intelligent discussion rather than an inane flamewar, so I can't use my official seal.

[Hawk]

Hawk, I guess one of the best ways to try to take away from someone else's argument is to make them out to be a villian. Over your last couple posts I've been called a vicious (really? vicious?), name calling, thread hijacking, attacking, detriment to live music. For someone who takes the moral high ground on name calling, do you READ your own posts?

I gotta laugh at the irony of calling someone a name caller. Isn't that name calling?

To everyone else who has suffered through reading these last few posts, I promise that no matter what Hawk's reply, I will not post back or hijack this thread even further. Even if he comes back with something really good.

The words I used were descriptive in nature. and they describe your attacks, as in "vicious attacks". Yeah vicious. As in, attempt to ruin someone's bvusiness. That's vicious.

You've been called "name calling" .

Pointing out my opinion, that your attacks on a bar owner are a detriment to live music is not the same as calling you a douche. I wouldn't call anyone that.


Nice try at spinning it around. I did not call you any name.

Are you saying you didn't "attack" anyone ?
You did.

Are you saying you didn't call Claudio any names ?
You did.

Do you think attacking bar owners will help the cause for live music (or be detrimental) ?
You didn't help. These public attacks never do help.

Do you truly think it was necessary to call a bar owner names and make personal attacks against him because Ray felt dissed ?
You did.

Is this name calling or pointing out facts and opinions ?

Am I mean for pointing this out ?

The irony is, you are what you are and don't recognise it. You did these things and didn't want a lable for it. And it angered you to the point of denial.

BTW I have a on my face. Don't take this so seriously.

[I have a question]

Hawk, your neighbors just called...they want you to go back outside.

[hicksjd9]

True to my word, I will not reply to Hawk.

Rob,

I'm sorry if I came across harsh. I just get this feeling (a lot) lately that rockpage is a bunch of sharks in the water waiting for blood. For someone who goes here regularly, it's no big deal (we're used to it), but for someone who is here for the first time it's too much. It feels like high school. That's not the environment that we need here. That guy is from out of state and maybe he is an amateur, but weren't we all at one point? I'm just trying to say that as a leader here, you help to create the tone of this place. I know you're a really good guy, but iit sometimes doesn't translate to rockpage. This is a lot of people's introduction to music in our area and I wish it could be a little bit more reflective of how helpful and great the musicians on here are when you meet them in person.

[mjb]

Did i ever tell you guys i wash trucks.