The New Aristocracy At work

[Hawk]

Marshall Blue wrote:
Here we go again blaming one party or another. You really don't care do you Hawk? The moment you pin things to a Republican, someone can pin a ton of things to democrats like Pelosi blocking of shore drilling.... Everyone who wants to play the blame game is simply part of the problem that caused the crisis in the first place, which is this. people not sacking up and doing the right thing because it sucks and make s life hard. A loophole existed so what????? People with integrity don't push questionable mortgages then sell them out because they "can", even though they know it's not honest. Then when they get called out they point fingers, shift blame and figure someone else will clean up the mess after them. Idiots...........


Damn . Wake up.

If it is someone fault. "Don't blame them ?" Huh ?
It's Phil Graham's fault. We blame him so IT WON"T happen again !
So we can fix it.

My point is that it cannot be fixed because the perspective of the participants is broken. The aristocrats actually think they are doing good. They are playing with our money and "power" afforded them by the people, even if they know they are screwing the American public. They think they're improving the country when all they do is fight each other to remain in power. We have an energy problem not because Republicans take oil money (So did Clinton BTW) and allow big Oil to be free to make record profits, or the Dems take the money from the environmentalist lobbey and blocked all efforts for new exploration and refineries. We have a problem because both sides made remaining in power a priority above the good of the American people, while ignoring the facts. Our situation was predictable. What needed to happen was that both sides needed to relax their positions for the solution. We needed more refineries, drillling and exploration to ease the burdern, and Big Oil and the Auto industry need to be held in check and pushed to develop alternative fuels ect...None of this happened. Both sides dug their idealogical heals in to fight the other and we got screwed. No new sources of oil to help ease the burden while we transition to alternatives which remain undeveloped...

It was easier for the aristocrats to hide behind ideological principles and claim the moral high ground as they defined it, while Oil and the Auto industry placed profits above all else.


Hawk, You're the biggest political slut on these boards. No one pulls for a candidate or party like you. If you met Obamma you'd give him a big wet kiss with some tounge. If you think that pointing a finger at Phil Graham helps in anyway and things will be different with Barak, well you'll just have to keep on contributing to the problem.

Did you read any of the links ?

If the value of the dollar had not gone down (thanks to the deficit - most of which was created by the Reagan, Bush and Bush administrations - and the deregulation put in place - thanks to Phil graham - YOU WOULD HAVE $2.00 A GALLON RIGHT NOW !

You can't blame the Democrats for it at all. McCain wants the US oil to go to the world wide market. These are facts.

Obama wants to close the loopholes created by Graham. So yeah, I would support anyone who wants to do that ! Or do you prefer status quo.

Please read my post about drilling in the other political thread.

Slut ? I prefer "informed and well researched" .

Your point that it can not be fixed is so wrong. We know what caused it. Deregulation. Obama wants the loop hole closed. Problem fixed !

[Blue Reality]

Dude you're unbelievable. I've never blamed it all on the Dems. I've always said it's both sides. The minute anyone says anything here, you pile on the Republicans. Which flavor of cool aide do you prefer?

[Hawk]

I don't believe the Democrats blocked the building of refineries. Can you produce any facts about this ?

[Hawk]

Dude you're unbelievable. I've never blamed it all on the Dems. I've always said it's both sides. The minute anyone says anything here, you pile on the Republicans. Which flavor of cool aide do you prefer?

I blamed Phil Graham, Reagan, Bush and Bush. It is NOT my fault they happen to be Republicans.

Just the facts and nothing else .

[Hawk]

Study the links, please. It is the un-informed that are so frustrating. At least undercoverjoe and lonewolf are well informed when they speak.

[Blue Reality]

Just the facts and nothings else but a tall frosty glass of Koolaide. Is that grape or cherry flavor ????

[lonewolf]

You can't blame the Democrats for it at all. McCain wants the US oil to go to the world wide market. These are facts.

The fact is, that is the way the oil markets work. Thankfully, it cannot be withheld from the world markets because, thankfully, this is not the Soviet Union.

By trading domestic oil in the open world market, it contributes to the overall supply/demand equation. When we produce more domestic oil, it applies downward pressure on the price of oil. If we produce less domestic oil, it applies upward pressure on the price of oil.

What you must understand is that, although it is traded on the world markets, oil drilled within our borders doesn't physically leave the US. Its just a moving paper fantasy.

I finally heard Nancy Pelosi say something intelligent last night (sadly, it was on Comedy Central.) There are already millions of acres of unused oil drilling leases in effect right now. Her position is "use it or lose it". If the present lessees don't start production, they lose their lease and it goes back on the market to the highest bidder.

This is a position I have held for more than a decade...its too bad that politicians don't have a clue about anything until after the floodgates are opened.

[songsmith]

I finally heard Nancy Pelosi say something intelligent last night (sadly, it was on Comedy Central.) There are already millions of acres of unused oil drilling leases in effect right now. Her position is "use it or lose it". If the present lessees don't start production, they lose their lease and it goes back on the market to the highest bidder.

This is a position I have held for more than a decade...its too bad that politicians don't have a clue about anything until after the floodgates are opened.

Now we're talking. The Oil Leeches are simply waiting for the most profitable price point to drill sixty-eight million acres of land already leased. They don't lease the land if they're not showing any oil under it. It wouldn't be years and years down the road because the paperwork's already been done on the 68,000,000 acres. Just drill it. Drill my front yard and put a windmill in the back, for God's sake.
How many times do I have to say it: Big Oil is a small group of very very VERY rich men who don't give a flat-footed fuck about YOU or your politics, or your little house or your bills, or your kids. They care about record profits, corporate tax breaks, and their castles in Dallas suburbs. Blame whoever the hell you want for gas prices, but never lose sight of the UNDENIABLE FACT that they made enough PROFIT (shall I define "profit?") in one year to pay for the Iraq debacle for one year. The most any industry EVER made. Now you can blame OPEC, they have a hand in it, too, but they're not Americans, and anyway, I'll point out that Big Oil made their profits on markups of foreign oil. It ain't like they've tighten their belts like we have, they didn't exactly patriotically drop their profit margin to benefit these United States, now did they?
You people backing the oil companies... now THERE'S some Kool-Aid. You hear rich fat-asses on Faux News and you just believe them because the last story was about God 'n guns. Bully for you. Drink up.
Wanna make a statement? Call your broker, call the guy who takes care of your 401k and IRA. Tell him that you want out of all funds that include petroleum stock. Sure you'll lose a little money, but you're losing thousands a year at the pump. Unless you have hundreds of thousands directly in petro, you're not getting enough money from investments to cover the cost of your actual gasoline and heat fuel. Divest, and let Big Oil use some of that 120 billion instead of your money.
Oh, and I agree with Hawk on deregulation. Name me just one industry that had lower consumer prices a year after deregulation. That wouldn't make sense... I tell you that you can charge whatever you want, so you say, "Well, let's bring our prices DOWN and engage in some competition! We'll work a lot harder and smarter and pass it all on to our customers!" Riiiiiiiiigggggghhhhhhht.--------->JMS

[lonewolf]

I finally heard Nancy Pelosi say something intelligent last night (sadly, it was on Comedy Central.) There are already millions of acres of unused oil drilling leases in effect right now. Her position is "use it or lose it". If the present lessees don't start production, they lose their lease and it goes back on the market to the highest bidder.

This is a position I have held for more than a decade...its too bad that politicians don't have a clue about anything until after the floodgates are opened.

Now we're talking. The Oil Leeches are simply waiting for the most profitable price point to drill sixty-eight million acres of land already leased. They don't lease the land if they're not showing any oil under it. It wouldn't be years and years down the road because the paperwork's already been done on the 68,000,000 acres. Just drill it. Drill my front yard and put a windmill in the back, for God's sake.--------->JMS

We all know that the cost of producing oil is now a lot less than the price its sold for on the open market. The question is, how can we take advantage of these margins and still maintain a free market system without levying intangible non-productive taxes.

As long as we are a net importer of oil, I can think of only 2 things:

1) Raise the price of drilling leases so they are more in line with today's oil prices--possibly an auction system with an automatic inactivity clause.

2) Form a new division within the Army Corps of Engineers for non-profit production and refinement of domestic oil for government and military use. Once again killing several birds with one stone, it would cut world demand and increase domestic supply while cutting government costs. Don't forget, our taxes go to pay for government use of oil products at prevailing prices. No single entity is a bigger consumer of energy than the US federal government.

[Hawk]

Just the facts and nothings else but a tall frosty glass of Koolaide. Is that grape or cherry flavor ????

Good comeback. Well researched. I can tell you really know what you're talking about now. You must.........

Well, can I ask you a question ? Are you old enough to vote ?

[Hawk]

From the world of all things political...

Pres Bush is set to sign the Mortgage Loan Scandal Bail Out today and imbedded within the bill is a measure to increase the Deficit to 10 Trillion Dollars. Before anyone on either side of the isle pipes up that it's the others fault, this is a bipartisan venture. Those bastards are spending like there is no tomorrow. But there is, and we will be paying for it... The Morons at Courty wide et al should be footing it. Not the taxpayers and no one it seems will serve time over this.

All compliments of your elected Aristocracy...

Just a reminder of the thread opening.

Is it just for whining purposes - as expressed by Phil Graham - or were you looking for responses from anyone who will agree with you ?

Yes it is a bipartisan bail out. A necessity. But, the cause of the problem that created this bail out necessity was NOT bi-partisan. Be aware of that.

But for some unknown reason (perhaps you will explain ?) you don't want to know who or what caused it. And you don't seem to care that if you know what caused it - that there is someone who wants to stop it from happening again.

Also the statement that "No one will serve time over this" is because after de-regulation, everything they did was within the law. It would not have happened before the "Enron loop hole" was put in place - pushed by McCain economic adviser Phil Graham. Again, it's not my fault he's a Republican.

For this attempt at educating you - you offer me Kool Aid ?

Take the time to learn something / anything, when you start a thread.

[Blue Reality]

Hawk you live in your own fantasy world. You have posters of Obamma all over your room bedroom don't you.

Phil Graham might have sponsered the bill that led to deregulation, but that bill has to be signed off on by a Senate comittee and passed by both Houses of Congress. Don't democrats have a say in this too? Both parties had to sign off on this before becomes law. Don't you understand this proves my point? The democrats signed off on this one too. Both sides are doing this on a variety of issues. Both sides are "corrupt". That's been my point all along. You really don't care to engage this.

As soon as someone says anything political here it's always a Republican's fault. You refuse to even assume that the Dems are complicit in anything.You're the Sean Hannity of the of the Democratic party here bud. You belong on Air Anmerica if they are still on the air.

[BDR]

I'm voting for Jesse Jackson.

r:>)

[Blue Reality]

One more point....

If you single out Graham as the culprit without recognizing that one man cannot bring anything into law without a majority vote in both houses that would by necessity require democratics to sign on, means you have no clue what you are speaking about. If the Dems didn't sign off that piece of legislation, it would never have made it out of its comittee.

You really have no clue.....

[Blue Reality]

Yeah you better or he's gonna cut your nuts off!!!!!

[Hawk]

The lope hole - written and defended by Phil Graham - was inserted AS AN AMENDMENT to an appropriations bill. You understand that, right ?

I want the loop hole closed. Obviously you don't or you would be for the guy who can do it.

You are an obvious fool who will defend to the death the wrong things. Go ahead, vote for the guy who will leave things as is. But don't start your baby like whine again. Which (I asked) is why you started this thread.

How is it fantasy ? I've given you the facts. You have not disputed them. You make attempts at slurs as a way to defend your point of view.

Fantasyland is where one lives, whines, complains, and does not know what caused him to whine and complain. Nor does he research to find out why we are in the predicament we are in.

I ask again.
Why did you start this thread ? To Whine ?

Why don't you care who and what started the problem ?

Why do you sweep with a broad brush that everyone in politics did this to you ? Paranoid ?

Why don't you care if there is a candidate out there who will fix this problem ?

My guess. You made a statement that it is everyone's fault and you will defend that statement without substance or facts. You want to believe it. Even if what you believe is wrong. You do not wish to be enlightened.
You are AFRAID, yes afraid of being wrong. So you rant on with slurs as your only weapon.

I try to respond to what you are saying, do the same for me. And keep your child like slurs to yourself.

[Hawk]

Marshall

Stupid me. I get it now. You're just trolling. Ok, cool, you sucked me in. But at least I got to make some points. Good job man.

I'm done, I know when I've been trolled.

[Sapo]

I don't have the time to go over your points one by one but here are a few of the fallacies in your argument...

The bail out IS a necessity.

The Mortgage companies were allowed to suck people in to mortgages they couldn't afford and then - because of deregulation -

WRONG. People got loans they knew they couldn't afford...and if they didn't know it then they should have known. Either way, they need to learn their lesson without my tax money bailing them out, and the mortgage companies need to go out of business. That's capitalism.

If the value of the dollar had not gone down (thanks to the deficit - most of which was created by the Reagan, Bush and Bush administrations - and the deregulation put in place - thanks to Phil graham - YOU WOULD HAVE $2.00 A GALLON RIGHT NOW !

WRONG. The value of the dollar is going down because we keep printing more money...there isn't any more wealth, we just print more money. Think of it like this...there's some Jack Daniels [wealth] in your glass (a good thing) but the bartendar keeps watering it down by adding more and more coke [paper money] to make it seem like there is a bigger and bigger drink. In reality, you have the same amount of alcohol but its more and more diluted. That is essentially how inflation works.

Gas will go down when there is more energy supply and less demand. Econ 101.

[Blue Reality]

Hawk,

You're trying to appear analytical and impartial, but when you post dude you can't stand republicans and think Obamma will save the day. Just say so, and stop trying to set everyone straight with your "insights". I'll tell you straight up that I'll likely vote for McCain but I don't expect more than Republican Status quo from him and more of the same Bullshit. Which is what you're gonna get from your man, but it will be more of the same Democratic status quo.

My thoughts have changed in that this election is a wash. I'm looking for a "movemne" of sorts that will let the Bastards know that we the people can't handle what they have done. No more status quo. i don't know what that looks like, but I'm looking...

[Blue Reality]

Ahhh that should read ..."movement" or some such from "we the people of the USA..."

My Bad.........

[Banned]

I don't have the time to go over your points one by one but here are a few of the fallacies in your argument...

The bail out IS a necessity.

The Mortgage companies were allowed to suck people in to mortgages they couldn't afford and then - because of deregulation -

WRONG. People got loans they knew they couldn't afford...and if they didn't know it then they should have known. Either way, they need to learn their lesson without my tax money bailing them out, and the mortgage companies need to go out of business. That's capitalism.

If the value of the dollar had not gone down (thanks to the deficit - most of which was created by the Reagan, Bush and Bush administrations - and the deregulation put in place - thanks to Phil graham - YOU WOULD HAVE $2.00 A GALLON RIGHT NOW !

WRONG. The value of the dollar is going down because we keep printing more money...there isn't any more wealth, we just print more money. Think of it like this...there's some Jack Daniels [wealth] in your glass (a good thing) but the bartendar keeps watering it down by adding more and more coke [paper money] to make it seem like there is a bigger and bigger drink. In reality, you have the same amount of alcohol but its more and more diluted. That is essentially how inflation works.

Gas will go down when there is more energy supply and less demand. Econ 101.

Great post Sapo.

[lonewolf]

Bill -- you slut! You want change? Here's your change:

[Hawk]

I don't have the time to go over your points one by one but here are a few of the fallacies in your argument...

The bail out IS a necessity.

The Mortgage companies were allowed to suck people in to mortgages they couldn't afford and then - because of deregulation -

WRONG. People got loans they knew they couldn't afford...and if they didn't know it then they should have known. Either way, they need to learn their lesson without my tax money bailing them out, and the mortgage companies need to go out of business. That's capitalism.

If the value of the dollar had not gone down (thanks to the deficit - most of which was created by the Reagan, Bush and Bush administrations - and the deregulation put in place - thanks to Phil graham - YOU WOULD HAVE $2.00 A GALLON RIGHT NOW !

WRONG. The value of the dollar is going down because we keep printing more money...there isn't any more wealth, we just print more money. Think of it like this...there's some Jack Daniels [wealth] in your glass (a good thing) but the bartendar keeps watering it down by adding more and more coke [paper money] to make it seem like there is a bigger and bigger drink. In reality, you have the same amount of alcohol but its more and more diluted. That is essentially how inflation works.

Gas will go down when there is more energy supply and less demand. Econ 101.

You are right but you have it wrong.

There are stupid people out there. That's a given. The regulations that were in place protected the stupid people. After PHIL GRAHAM'S amendment deregulated the industry. THEY WERE LAWFULLY ALLOWED TO PREY ON STUPID PEOPLE ! I don't understand why you don't have a problem with that ? Explain that to me please.

Now it will cost YOU out of YOUR pocket, and generations to come ! If a Democrat had created this debacle you guys would be screaming .

The bottom line is, regulations were in place to protect the stupid. Then they were taken away (by Phil Graham - Did I mention that his wife collected $900,000 over 10 years from Enron and the idea for the amendment came from Kenneth Leigh (spelling?)) The stupid people got a bait and switch mortgage. And YOU will cover it.

Do you guys get out at all ? Not everyone is as smart as you. I see lots of people who couldn't balance a check book, let alone understand a complicated mortgage. So put back the regulations to protect the stupid.

There are people who predict that if the loop hole were taken away. (I take it you still don't know what the loop hole is ?) If it were taken away, the price of gas would drop by 25%. These are people in government.

If we didn't have a deficit, would we have a need to print more money ? Cause and effect.

Seems I covered your points.

[Hawk]

The value of the dollar world wide is declining because we are in debt up to our ears, and we are no longer considered a good investment. We are the largest debter nation in the history of the world.

I don't think it will be long until the price of oil will be based on the Euro.

[MeYatch]

Do you guys get out at all ? Not everyone is as smart as you. I see lots of people who couldn't balance a check book, let alone understand a complicated mortgage. So put back the regulations to protect the stupid.

I don't even like stupid people, I don't want to buy them a house

There are people who predict that if the loop hole were taken away. (I take it you still don't know what the loop hole is ?) If it were taken away, the price of gas would drop by 25%. These are people in government.

Who predicts that? I could predict anything I want.

Here:

I predict that gas would drop to $1.50 a gallon if Hawk would stop posting a bunch of links from biased sources that nobody is going to read, because even if they would back up his claim, nobody wants to agree with him anyway, even if it means being wrong.