I'm letting the secret out

redawg · Post by **redawg** » Sunday Mar 07, 2004

Good people, get ready for the ultimate expierence in p2p file sharing programs. In my humble opinion, it just doesn't get any better than this. Have any of you ever heard of a program called DC++? It is similar to Kazaa or Imesh but way better. You set up a share folder and a downloads recieved folder. You go into what are called hubs. Hubs are rooms with different numbers of users in them. Your name along with all the other user names will be on the screen as well as your share sizes. There is a chat window too. What you do is raid each others folders. You can chat with the people you are getting stuff from. There are thousands and thousands of public hubs. People, I have nearly half of the TOOL concerts from their last tour on BOOTLEG LIVE VIDEO. I got them from the Tool hub I'm in. I have like 15 Gigabytes of live Tool bootleg videos. There is no spy ware or pop ups. There is a site that you can go to and search for different types of hubs. I found an Evanescence hub and a concert video hub on that site. There are automatic bots that scan your share when you go in so there are no viruses and hardly any bad/incomplete files. Check it out, it kicks so much ass. I got live bootleg vids from all kinds of bands. When you open DC++ you just type in the address of the hub you want to go to and connect. Just think, if one of you were in the same hub as me, you could raid my personal folder every day! Please don't ask me to sell any of my videos. I will never sell music or videos to anyone. I'll gladly trade stuff or even give you something if you ask me.

Punkinhead · Post by **Punkinhead** » Monday Mar 08, 2004

i know "some people" who use dc++ as well, and it is awesome...although in light of RIAA and our beloved patriot act overuling the internet privacy act now, i dont think publicly posting about sharing programs is wise....just my opinion

Timicide · Post by **Timicide** » Monday Mar 08, 2004

This program has been out for some time now. This may be sort of confusing to non tech people. Plus, Punkinhead has a point.

esa · Post by **esa** » Monday Mar 08, 2004

Plus.. Share folders are a hackers dream. Trust me, I know that kind of stuff. Just because you're only sharing one folder doesn't mean that the other folders are your computer are safe. That's the down side of music share places. Fire walls and anti virus anti theft protection programs can do diddly squat when the hands of an itchy hacker are in it.

And please don't think I'm putting down Kazaa or Imesh, Napster or any other music place. I think downloading music should be allowed. Hell, I used to tape from the radio when I was a kid and make my own tapes..fall in love with artists then go by the stinkin' album anyways. So I don't see what the big deal is.

There ya go, possible new topic strand. Do y'all think that downloading songs free on the internet is a good way to share or is bad piracy?

redawg · Post by **redawg** » Monday Mar 08, 2004

Not into getting music. As a huge fan of Tool, I admit I have a bunch of their concerts. Those are for my personal use. I love being able to watch Danny Carey play almost every day. If they want to go after someone, they should go after the people that went to the shows, recorded them on video, ripped them into their computers and put them in their shares. I'm not ripping off artists for getting some live footage of them am I?

Punkinhead · Post by **Punkinhead** » Monday Mar 08, 2004

file sharing should be legal, i know in most cases, ill go buy the disc if i like it...case in point....2 years ago, i downloaded ravenous (arch enemy), two weeks later, i bought the disc, and when anthems of rebellion came out, i was lucky enough to get an autographed version of it and am one of the hugest arch enemy fans on the planet and would never have found them if not for d.l.ing it

i have 10 bands or more like this

the crown is another, although they just broke up

you just cant find good metal in most places around here, without sharing programs, id be lost for new music, unless i order overseas....in which case, id have to be giving up money for something ive not heard yet, and yeah, money grows on trees in my backyard

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Monday Mar 08, 2004

I've been ambivalent to whether file-sharing music is ethically just or not. I really haven't researched the financial numbers, so I can't make a comment on that, either way. People don't look at the big picture though. You could argue that artists make their money on touring and merchandising. We could also argue that big record exec fat cats should get their just deserts. (which I agree, every time one of them bitches about the money they are losing, I just think back to guys like Jim Croce getting screwed and laugh at the poetic justic/karma) BUT, people are failing to take into account the trickle down effect. By downloading music, you are not just hurting the fat cats, you are hurting everyone who works for them; the secretaries, the accountants, the IT guys, the studio engineers, the janitors, ect. Then of course, that trickles down even further into the economy. Again, I'm not saying whether downloading music is right or wrong; like I said, I'm still ambivalent on the issue, but I think we should look at the bigger picture. The economy needs all the help it can get right now. Whether we think about it or not, all of us who perform professionally, are part of the musical economy; we should take measures to preserve it's integrity.

re Punkinhead: Isn't it funny how you have to import Metal here in the states, but bands like Blind Guardian and Emperor actually chart in Europe?

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Monday Mar 08, 2004

redawg wrote:Not into getting music. As a huge fan of Tool, I admit I have a bunch of their concerts. Those are for my personal use. I love being able to watch Danny Carey play almost every day. If they want to go after someone, they should go after the people that went to the shows, recorded them on video, ripped them into their computers and put them in their shares. I'm not ripping off artists for getting some live footage of them am I?

Not directly, but by downloading you are creating a demand for pirated material. Again, I want to put down the disclaimer that I'm not saying you are wrong, or that I disagree with you; I'm just offering some rhetorical thoughts for everyone to think about.

But you also bring up an interesting point: Should bootlegs be treated the same as official recordings?

redawg · Post by **redawg** » Monday Mar 08, 2004

Just heard a little news clip on the radio. They say Outkast's new double cd has sold over 8 million copies. How many more do they want to sell?

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Monday Mar 08, 2004

It doesn't matter what we think the legalities of file sharing should be. We also need to get past the symantics of 'file sharing'. That has the same effect as saying 'money sharing'. Downloading copywritten material and then making it available for others is illegal, period.

All of us that do it are breaking copywrite laws and committing a crime. Sure there are plenty of other crimes that are much worse. In this case we justify it by making all the excuses about record execs being overpaid, CD prices too high, bands making money on touring and merch. Whatever the excuse, it comes back to the fact that we like it and are willing to adjust our morals to fit the situation. It is just a choice we make.

Auto makers have high paid execs, cars seem over priced, but it doesn't make it right to steal one just because we don't want to pay for it.

People are blurring the issue by saying 'file sharing' should be legal. File sharing is legal. It is just not legal to share something that you don't have rights to.

Bands that want to give music away are certainly free to do so if they have the rights to. The bands that claim the record companies restrict them from making thier music available to the fans are forgetting about the contract they signed.

Hey, I have and will download music. I do actually purchase some through my iTunes account (maybe 10%).

I know it is not a popular position that I am taking, but I am just being realistic. Copywrite laws are there for a reason. It was illegal when we all made tapes off the radio and it still is. What has made things worse is that now stealing copywritten material happens on a scale a million times what it was even 10 years ago.

Please, before anyone decides to flame the crap out of me, remember that this is my opinion and my interpretation of the copywrite laws.

Cheers!

Punkinhead · Post by **Punkinhead** » Monday Mar 08, 2004

I just download to check out music that I can't find here mostly...I don't buy anything coming from most major labels to begin with but, I'm not gonna buy an Emporer CD if I've never heard them, money is just too tight. I know it's breaking the law but, like I said, I think for alot of bands that aren't Brittany Spears or Creed, or whoever else gets forced on us.

It is funny how these bands can chart in Europe but, it also says alot about our music industry in the states and how it is all about image and not music. There are some really killer bands doing some awesome things but, you'd never know it by the popular American music industry.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Monday Mar 08, 2004

Punkinhead wrote:It is funny how these bands can chart in Europe but, it also says alot about our music industry in the states and how it is all about image and not music.

You nailed that. Not only in music though. Look at the explosion of cosmetic surgery in America. Everyone is focusing on outward appearance as opposed to substance. Pretty much everything in America is sold on image.

FatVin · Post by **FatVin** » Monday Mar 08, 2004

Redawg Wrote:

Just heard a little news clip on the radio. They say Outkast's new double cd has sold over 8 million copies. How many more do they want to sell?

Ya gotta remember according to record company math they probably still haven't broken even yet

Dwertz wrote:

Everyone is focusing on outward appearance as opposed to substance. Pretty much everything in America is sold on image.

No one wishes this weren't true more than I, Would the Stones have made it if they were a new band today? Aerosmith? ZZ Top? Sabbath? Ozzy? Would N'Sync have a career back in the days before video? Britney? J-lo?

There is only one answer to this....

MTV must be destroyed!

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Monday Mar 08, 2004

Dwertz, you bring up a lot of good points. I think we do rationalize file-sharing because it is made available to us. I think we also rationalize it because it's not the same (in our eyes) as walking into Wal-mart and sticking something under our coat.

I agree that having music samples available is a good thing, but do you really think that the average 14 year old downloading the latest Britney Spears album is really planning on buying the CD? It's kind of like shareware; how many of us have actually paid money to the programmers because we "found their software useful"? I think it's great that there are people who are passionate about supporting artists, but I wound be willing to guess that majority of people who download music don't have any plans on buying the album.

But here's another question; I don't know about all of you, but I would say that about 95% of my CD collection is used. I don't want to pay 19 dollars for a CD. I can buy 4 or 5 used CDs for the same price. I'm not stealing anybody's property, but on the other hand, I'm still not supporting the artist who made the music. They already made their percentage when the CD was first bought. And let's not forget, many of the CDs that are in pawn shops may have been stolen out of people's cars. Like I find with most things in life, none of this is a black and white situation.

When it comes to America and popular music, I always wondered if we are told by the recording industry what to like, or if we tell the recording industry what we like and they in turn saturate the market with it. Either way, it's just not music; look at reality shows, it's sad that people actually enjoy that crap. (not to mention the sociology commentary it makes on society; do people really enjoy watching other manipulate each other for personal gain?) But I can't be totally immaculate with that, I do make it a point to watch American Chopper every week.

redawg · Post by **redawg** » Monday Mar 08, 2004

Check this site out. http://www.eff.org/IP/P2P/riaasubpoenas/

Guys, I didn't intend to stir up any trouble with this post. I was just tryin to be a brutha and let you all know where you can find concert vids of your favorite bands. I hate seeing people killing their computers with those crappy spyware loaded programs. All my DC++ peeps know I'm not into pirating music. I rip all my bought cds in my computer and I don't share them with anyone. I'm so glad I did that or I would have had to buy the Lateralus album 3 times. Cds are way too damn fragile. I hope no one thinks I came on here telling everyone to steal music from artists. I can't help myself. I love Tool. I collect everything I can get my hands on by them. I would have given anything to have gone to see them on their last tour. Work schedule killed that idea. Yes, I have other concert vids. I have Gene Simmons first appearence on the Mike Douglas show. Where could I buy any of the vids I have? I gladly would. I remember when I went to Jack Frost Mountain in the Poconos to see a multi band show. Maybe even some of you were there. It was the Spin Doctors, Badwrench, Stir and a few others. There was a vendor there who was selling tons of VHS Tool bootlegs as well as other bands. That is the only time I have seen concert vids for sale. That is wrong. Please don't misunderstand my intentions with this thread.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Monday Mar 08, 2004

redawg wrote:Guys, I didn't intend to stir up any trouble with this post.

Hey Redawg,

I doubt anyone thinks that. It is just an interesting topic to discuss.

Cheers.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Monday Mar 08, 2004

Red, don't think anybody is attacking you; I know I'm not. Someone just posted a question about whether file-sharing should be legal/illegal and some of us answered.

Again, I'm wondering, should bootlegs be treated the same (in the eyes of the law) as official recordings? I know many bands have benefited greatly from bootlegging and encourage it. (i.e. Phish, DMB, Grateful Dead) Really, the band is the only one effected by bootlegging. If they allow people to record concerts, I don't see why it should be a problem.

redawg · Post by **redawg** » Monday Mar 08, 2004

Want to keep things all good

This is just a very touchy subject. Interesting, but touchy.

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Monday Mar 08, 2004

How bout this point, If I had bought the "recorded material" on cassete years ago and prefer to download it so I can have it on CD am I a criminal?

I say for listening purposes file sharing should be legal, now If someone wants to use a song for a TV add, Radio add, in a movie or anything else like that then pay the piper.

Just my 2 cents

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Tuesday Mar 09, 2004

We should bear in mind , too, that the RIAA was offered file-sharing as a business model, and passed. The prevailiing attitude was that nobody would want to take the hours necessary to DL an album on a 28.8 modem, which was the standard at that time. Of course, Burke's Law dictates that tech capabilities double every 18 months or faster, and then broadband hit faster than they figured. Apparently, 15 year old punks have a better handle on technology than 70 year old media conglomerate's board members do. They snoozed, they ... uh... losed.
Again, never assume in the business world that everyone involved is getting what they're due. A directorship makes money for 3 distinct groups: Employees (artists, technicians, engineers,etc.), Shareholders (investors who own stock in said corporation) and Management (the directors themselves). It doesn't take an MBA to figure out who gets their share first. Anyone who works locally for a national company can tell you that the CEO drives a little nicer car than the janitor who cleans the john, even though both assume the involved risks, and both work hard.
File sharing puts control of the product in the end user. Commercial radio is an obvious wasteland of corporate greed, and limits access to music to 30 or so songs at any given time. MTV is , well... worse. That leaves live shows (my personal favorite) and song-sharing. 20 years ago, probably 50% of my tape collection was dubbed. Remember classic rock was very rare on radio until the AOR format hit big in the mid 80's. Metal? Only Jim Price and Jay Randall played that stuff, and that was at 2 in the morning, one night a week, on a stepped-down transmitter. If you liked metal, you drove to State College or farther, and plunked down money you couldn't afford, or you dubbed the the tape from a friend. That's just how it was.
What a hot-button issue, and always a good discussion. Dwertz makes an excellent case, too... What do YOU think?------>JMS

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Tuesday Mar 09, 2004

John, that's one of the best post I've read at RP in a long time. (especially consdering I had to put up with a week of "You are all niave/I know more about songwriting than all of you/There's a time frame problem/ect.

)

I never knew that the RIAA intially accepted file-sharing. I guess it goes to show that the recording industry really aren't made up of great business people. Any idiot who knows anything about the computer industry is aware at how fast the technology changes. 28k is very slow, but it shouldn't have taken a member of Mensa to realize that high speed connections were just around the corner. As you said, it goes to show just how out of touch most of the executives really are.

I think another major problem the record companies are facing, is with music being available online, their competetion has now greatly increased. Now, Electra doesn't have to compete with Warner Brothers and Geffen; they have to compete with the guy down the street who has a copy of Pro Tools/Cakewalk and one of the biggest promotion medias ever created. I think the recording industry really dropped the ball on this one. Who are they hiring in terms of marketing? You would think such a rich industry would take note of changing technology and utilize it to their potential. Even now, I don't see the recording industry doing anything very creative with the 'net. Most of it is just selling CDs online and having band homepages. I still stick by my hypothesis: I think the recording industry is going to be obselete in 20 years. And you know what; that can only be a good thing for music.