So I had a nutty....
First of all Rob, C'mon, It was never personal, You and I go back to the early 90's and WLAK, believe it or not I have respect for you too.
I like and respect smart opinionated people, period.
When smart and opinonated people disagree with me, that's fun cause then I got a win-win situation...If I'm wrong I learn something . . .WIN and if I'm right I get to be right and who doesn't like that...WIN
On the other Thread, You nailed me , I am a crusader,
them that's not busy being born is busy dying.
Ever read Don Quixote?
Don Quixote is the story of a crazy old man who reads books about knights and chivalry and then dresses up like a knight and goes out into the countryside trying to do great deeds, the phrase "Jousting at windmills" comes from that book.
Don Quixote found the things that he belived in, lke honor and Courage and loyalty and tried to live them everyday in the real world, and we make fun of him for it,
so who's crazy, him or us?
As vital and neccessary as I believe it is, Change can be an exhausting, frustrating, business and most of the time I'm up to it, but every now and then, I feel like I'm being criticized for fighting a losing battle by people (no one in particular here) who aren't even willing to suit up, I get a belly full of it (and with my belly that's a lot LOL) and I blow off some steam.
yes I use third person indicative pronouns (you, you're etc) in a general way and upon reflection I could see where someone could take that personally, well...don't, cause it rarely is.
Do I think there is an unspoken conspiracy to preserve the status quo hereabouts,
I dunno, it feels that way sometimes and it ain't just me who feels that way........
Am I going to stop passionatly advocating for the changes I believe in and knuckle under to "that's the way things are"
no, cause that would be "drinking the cool-aid"
Will there be more of these little nutty episodes....well sooner or later, probably yeah...but not for a while...one of the things about letting off steam is that it takes a while for the pressure to build back up again.
When and if one of these things do occur again, remember the rhetoric and the ten-dollar words are illustrations to a point, I like hyperbole, I like metaphor and Irony...look for the joke (they're in there, I promise) and most important, it's not personal.
Rockpage is special, it's a unique community and something I treasure.
SO I had a nuttty.....
SO I had a nuttty.....
Blooz to Youz
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bassist_25
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6815
- Joined: Monday Dec 09, 2002
- Location: Indiana
Vinny I agree with you to a certain point. I never liked the status quo either, but as I've gotten older, I've learned that it's sometimes (key word is "sometimes") pointless to fight it. There are times when you should fight the status quo, such as when it deals with politics, but when it comes to the cultural status quo, it's going to be a losing battle. Being a martyr never really appealed to me, so maybe that's why I'm not really proactive about a lot of things.
I really don't give a shit about Central Pa (I mean that as a whole, not the music scene). We live in a cultural black hole with a piss-poor economy. I'm planning on going to graduate school far, far away from here. That's still a few years down the road, and I wish I could jump ship sooner. I'm not ashamed of where I come from either; my geographical history was just something that I never really internalized into my self-concept. Like many of the people here at Rockpage, I came from a small-town school where the teachers were more concerned with coaching sports and earning a paycheck than teaching the students anything worth while. My old school currently has one AP program, which is history. Our history teacher is a great man, God bless him. But I digress. I couldn't wait to get the hell out of that place.
But to the main point: Rob and I think a lot alike. That's probaly the reason why we get along so good. We talk a lot about stuff that goes on in the scene and stuff that gets said here. I don't want to speak for Rob, but I can assure that what his point was in the "No. 1..." thread was not to follow the status quo, but to take an objective look at one's goals and obstacles and then decide how to achieve those goals. He was totally agreeing with you. It's just that it seems that more often than not, someone comes on here bitching and moaning that they're trying to play a set of all original avante-garde, Brovakian, death metal, straight-edge, hardcore with prepared pianos, and after two shows, the crowd is apathetic. Then they try to blame their lack of immediate success on everything from absence of culture to cover bands stealing gigs. Rob was just saying that they need to quit their pissing and moaning and learn a thing or two about how business works in the real world. I know that a lot of people are going to disagree with me, but once you step out of the practice room, you are going to have to comprimise somewhere along the way. The question is what things are you willing to comprimise to get where you want to be. If your goal is to play a show full of nothing but original material, then your going to have to comprimise crowd attendance. If you want bigger crowds early in your career, then you may have to comprimise by playing some covers. I support anything anyone wants to do as long as they are following their heart. It just rubs me the wrong way when things don't work out as planned and the musicians start bawling around and blaming their problems on everything but their lack of common sense.
I had to spend 3/4 of the original music showcase thread from a month ago trying to clear up any misconceptions about my attitude towards local original music because people were putting words in my mouth and alluding to things in my posts that weren't there. Some people probaly still think that I'm down on original music, AND NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH. I was just saying that it's little pretentious and down right unrealistic to think that original music should automatically be respected because it's original. We're currently in the writing process, and we're VERY excited about what we're starting to produce. But, we also know that playing the stuff is going to be a hazing ritual. We're prepared to deal with people leaving the dance floor when we start into one of our songs. We also know that if we were a new band just starting out playing nothing bu originals, when wouldn't be drawing anybody by going out and booking shows.
But yes, it would be great if Central Pa were more receptive to original music. I think that we should showcase as much quality original material as possible. But until that happens, we'll all have to pay some dues and take the proverbial lumps associated with being musicians. I think that it's great when a band finds success in a genre of music that isn't being force-fed by every other band on the block. BJD and The Nightcrawlers are two great examples, BUT they are also two QUALITY acts. People don't give the audience enough credit; they know when a singer is off key, or a guitar is out of tune, or or if a FOH mix sucks. No, they don't listen to music with the same discerning ear that a musician does, but if the overall package is not up to par, the audience isn't going to react positively.
Wow, I didn't mean to write a novel.
I really don't give a shit about Central Pa (I mean that as a whole, not the music scene). We live in a cultural black hole with a piss-poor economy. I'm planning on going to graduate school far, far away from here. That's still a few years down the road, and I wish I could jump ship sooner. I'm not ashamed of where I come from either; my geographical history was just something that I never really internalized into my self-concept. Like many of the people here at Rockpage, I came from a small-town school where the teachers were more concerned with coaching sports and earning a paycheck than teaching the students anything worth while. My old school currently has one AP program, which is history. Our history teacher is a great man, God bless him. But I digress. I couldn't wait to get the hell out of that place.
But to the main point: Rob and I think a lot alike. That's probaly the reason why we get along so good. We talk a lot about stuff that goes on in the scene and stuff that gets said here. I don't want to speak for Rob, but I can assure that what his point was in the "No. 1..." thread was not to follow the status quo, but to take an objective look at one's goals and obstacles and then decide how to achieve those goals. He was totally agreeing with you. It's just that it seems that more often than not, someone comes on here bitching and moaning that they're trying to play a set of all original avante-garde, Brovakian, death metal, straight-edge, hardcore with prepared pianos, and after two shows, the crowd is apathetic. Then they try to blame their lack of immediate success on everything from absence of culture to cover bands stealing gigs. Rob was just saying that they need to quit their pissing and moaning and learn a thing or two about how business works in the real world. I know that a lot of people are going to disagree with me, but once you step out of the practice room, you are going to have to comprimise somewhere along the way. The question is what things are you willing to comprimise to get where you want to be. If your goal is to play a show full of nothing but original material, then your going to have to comprimise crowd attendance. If you want bigger crowds early in your career, then you may have to comprimise by playing some covers. I support anything anyone wants to do as long as they are following their heart. It just rubs me the wrong way when things don't work out as planned and the musicians start bawling around and blaming their problems on everything but their lack of common sense.
I had to spend 3/4 of the original music showcase thread from a month ago trying to clear up any misconceptions about my attitude towards local original music because people were putting words in my mouth and alluding to things in my posts that weren't there. Some people probaly still think that I'm down on original music, AND NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH. I was just saying that it's little pretentious and down right unrealistic to think that original music should automatically be respected because it's original. We're currently in the writing process, and we're VERY excited about what we're starting to produce. But, we also know that playing the stuff is going to be a hazing ritual. We're prepared to deal with people leaving the dance floor when we start into one of our songs. We also know that if we were a new band just starting out playing nothing bu originals, when wouldn't be drawing anybody by going out and booking shows.
But yes, it would be great if Central Pa were more receptive to original music. I think that we should showcase as much quality original material as possible. But until that happens, we'll all have to pay some dues and take the proverbial lumps associated with being musicians. I think that it's great when a band finds success in a genre of music that isn't being force-fed by every other band on the block. BJD and The Nightcrawlers are two great examples, BUT they are also two QUALITY acts. People don't give the audience enough credit; they know when a singer is off key, or a guitar is out of tune, or or if a FOH mix sucks. No, they don't listen to music with the same discerning ear that a musician does, but if the overall package is not up to par, the audience isn't going to react positively.
Wow, I didn't mean to write a novel.
"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
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Bit*chenWomen1029
- Gold Member
- Posts: 360
- Joined: Monday Jul 18, 2005
- Location: Altoona ,Pa
- Contact:
Well said , i will also add that "most of the time" people are not trying to be ass' on here, sometimes what they write sounds worse in your head then how they are meaning it to come out!
I know from personnal exp. that your own mind is making their words sound worse then they are!
However, nicely stated bassist 25 and fat vin
I know from personnal exp. that your own mind is making their words sound worse then they are!
However, nicely stated bassist 25 and fat vin
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onegunguitar
- Diamond Member
- Posts: 2080
- Joined: Wednesday Aug 10, 2005
- Contact:
Well put Jason,we play in original bands because that's what we want to do,I know for a fact that you and I( and our fellow band mates) don't care if we play for 500 ppl or 5, we do it cause we love to play and if you ask me there ain't no feeling that's better than ppl digging your own material,as Eddie Van Halen said a long time ago-"I'd rather bomb on my own shit than make it with someone else's". Hmm,how true could that be? Actually,I could care less about "makin' it",I just want to make some music,play the best I can and have fuckin' fun. That's what it's about to me.
Excellent posts. I applaud the passion expressed on this site. One thing we all have in common is we do what we do because we love to do it.
I respect all of your opinions, even those I disagree with. The cool thing about this site is, I could disagree 200 percent with someone on any given topic, but in another thread and another topic, I'm agreeing 200 percent with that same member. When you disagree, it doesn't make you enemies, it makes you diverse.
It's cool to think differently than others. Most great ideas are a mixture of a few good ones.
r:>)
I respect all of your opinions, even those I disagree with. The cool thing about this site is, I could disagree 200 percent with someone on any given topic, but in another thread and another topic, I'm agreeing 200 percent with that same member. When you disagree, it doesn't make you enemies, it makes you diverse.
It's cool to think differently than others. Most great ideas are a mixture of a few good ones.
r:>)
Last edited by BDR on Saturday Nov 05, 2005, edited 3 times in total.
That's what she said.
BTW, Vin,
Nothing is ever taken personally, unless, of course, it comes from someone with no identity. I never take things personally from people I know and respect. You're bad ass, dude. You speak your mind. You think.
I'm not gonna lie and say I don't try to "stimulate discussion" on this forum, but it's cool to get to know what other people are thinking; to understand why people form the opinions they do concerning certain issues. This would be a boring place if debate were missing. Sorry, it's the lawyer in me ...
This place kicks ass.
r:>)
Nothing is ever taken personally, unless, of course, it comes from someone with no identity. I never take things personally from people I know and respect. You're bad ass, dude. You speak your mind. You think.
I'm not gonna lie and say I don't try to "stimulate discussion" on this forum, but it's cool to get to know what other people are thinking; to understand why people form the opinions they do concerning certain issues. This would be a boring place if debate were missing. Sorry, it's the lawyer in me ...
This place kicks ass.
r:>)
That's what she said.
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HurricaneBob
- AA Member
- Posts: 2790
- Joined: Monday Dec 09, 2002
- Location: /root/2/pub
- Contact:
Felix?
WTF Bobby? I love you guys and I've never said anything different here or in private.
Now truth be told...some of your more rabid fans, haven't been that nice to me over the years, particularly early on. ( that's more true for 4 or 5 years ago than it is now, hell I haven't even thought about this for a long time) and yes the utter and complete lack of respect I've felt from the more fanatical element of Hurricaniacs from time to time has rubbed me raw a few times
Just like I'm sure you don't like having certain people who left for Atlanta thrown in your face, I get Felix thrown in mine occasionally and sure it's an irritant
but at the end of the day I never expressed anything but love and respect for you guys as musicians and as men.....
IMO If you've got a problem with Felix Koz or Jeff Clapper personally, there's something wrong with you and in all honesty Bobby, you can be a little prickly from time to time but you're a good dude and good player
anyone who says I've ever said anything different is guilding the lilly a little in an attempt to stir up some shit.
WTF Bobby? I love you guys and I've never said anything different here or in private.
Now truth be told...some of your more rabid fans, haven't been that nice to me over the years, particularly early on. ( that's more true for 4 or 5 years ago than it is now, hell I haven't even thought about this for a long time) and yes the utter and complete lack of respect I've felt from the more fanatical element of Hurricaniacs from time to time has rubbed me raw a few times
Just like I'm sure you don't like having certain people who left for Atlanta thrown in your face, I get Felix thrown in mine occasionally and sure it's an irritant
but at the end of the day I never expressed anything but love and respect for you guys as musicians and as men.....
IMO If you've got a problem with Felix Koz or Jeff Clapper personally, there's something wrong with you and in all honesty Bobby, you can be a little prickly from time to time but you're a good dude and good player
anyone who says I've ever said anything different is guilding the lilly a little in an attempt to stir up some shit.
Blooz to Youz
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ZappasXWife
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1035
- Joined: Thursday Apr 10, 2003
- Location: Altoona
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AtoMikEnRtiA
- Diamond Member
- Posts: 1694
- Joined: Tuesday Sep 06, 2005
- Location: Palmyra, Pennsylvania - Where only the Strong Survive.. kinda like New Jersey...
- Contact:
Im gonna add in my .02..
The fact is, whether you're in a cover band or an original band in Central PA you're going to have to accept the fact that from the get-go, you automatically have to work extra hard to get some people's attention. Whether we like to admit it or not, we live (well i used to) in an area dominated by country music, and this "conservative" attitude keeps alot of people closed-minded to things. Sad as it is, it's very true. Not in all cases, but the vast majority of central PA frowns upon anything that may remotely come off as "vulgar, heavy or non-religious" - you can say all you want.. it's the truth in a lot of areas (operative words: a lot as in not all).
The fact is, you're all musicians, and business men - whether you're Bad DaZe and do covers - or you're Blind Johnny Death and do rock-a-billy, or Fat Vinny and do solo "blue" or what have you - or you're Second Offense, Eyes of Anguish, or SeVeR (who recently lost their singer?) and do straight up metal or metalcore. you're all musicians and no matter what, it is a business. Like bassist_25 said - compromises will have to be made, no matter who you are - whether you have to compromise if you do originals or covers, or if you have to compromise traveling or staying in the general area, or anything like that. I'll give you an example from the home front - Eyes of Anguish is an all original metal-core band - we've tried home shows, we've done the County Line Inn, and other places - but we realized that at this time, that area just isn't ready for what E.o.A brings to the table - but we realized other places are, so what do I do, as a businessman and head of management? I beseeched friendlier waters and different environments - a lot can be said that we travel to Du Bois to do what we consider "home" shows - we travel to Pittsburgh to get some exposure - we'll be traveling to Philadelphia, Baltimore, D.C. Reading and the like just to get some damn kind of fan base, and we all realize this is what has to be done because these are the compromises that have to be made.
To the subject of Rob saying that people need to stop pissing and moaning about cover acts stealing all the shows? How so? How would a cover band be stealing anything - look - it's been said a million times on here, bars are businesses - and in this area big business = cover bands.. if you ran a bar - you'd either do the same thing, or be hurting for business on Saturday nites. You want an example.. take a drive down 522 Saturday nite - go past the County Line Inn.. I guarantee you that the parking lot for that place will be packed, PACKED, to see Bad DaZe - then keep driving, go into Shirleysburg, there won't be a soul at Whitsels Pub. The fact is - Bar owners are looking at it from a business standpoint.. this is what pays the bills.. who are you to piss and moan saying that they're stealing your shows - because they will bring in over 100 people and you wouldn't? Yeah maybe you would bring in a good sized crowd.. maybe you have a strong following - but if you have a strong following.. they'll go anywhere you play (that's why they call it a "following" key part of that word.. "follow") so if you're bitching about anybody stealing your shows.. stop! You're either not good enough for business, or not aggressive enough with business to get that date - and besides, just because they're playing there this week - doesn't mean the bar shuts down the other 51 weeks of the year.. or do they?
I respect all musicians because Im not one. I cant play a guitar - or drums, or bass, and I can't sing - but that doesnt mean I hate everybody who can. Whether you're cover or original - it still takes the same amount of work to get the job done, and in this area - cover bands rule, the story is different down here in the Harrisburg Metro-plex, where cover bands are shunned, and labeled "Clone Rock" by certain factions of original music - but thats because down here.. original music is king - and it has been for a long time, and will be forever. In fact, the cover scene is so dead in Berks County - that the Silo Night Club and Energy Bar - is now taking ANY Cover bands, to play Saturday nites at the Energy bar - and keeping the Silo Night Club for original acts.. fine job by Frank and the crew at the Silo.
I know some of the things I say here aren't the most popular opinions, and Im surely not the most popular guy here - but the fact is, whether I disagree w/ you or not - I respect your opinion and will listen and take it in just the same. I may disagree with you, and if I do - you will hear my side of the argument, but in a clear, respectful manner that all debate should have from both sides. I'm not sure if anything i just said here makes sense or covers anything that wasnt already hit on - if not, I apologize and you can burn me out back after the game tonite (I got 20 bucks in the office pool waiting for me if Indy wins, in this case, the difference between me and the one guy I beat - was I picked the Steelers and he didnt) but meh, Im out.
**edit** it should be known that in case you mis-understand the wording, when i mention rob - im only mentioning him in name, and not disagreeing with him, im on his side w/ this one lol
The fact is, whether you're in a cover band or an original band in Central PA you're going to have to accept the fact that from the get-go, you automatically have to work extra hard to get some people's attention. Whether we like to admit it or not, we live (well i used to) in an area dominated by country music, and this "conservative" attitude keeps alot of people closed-minded to things. Sad as it is, it's very true. Not in all cases, but the vast majority of central PA frowns upon anything that may remotely come off as "vulgar, heavy or non-religious" - you can say all you want.. it's the truth in a lot of areas (operative words: a lot as in not all).
The fact is, you're all musicians, and business men - whether you're Bad DaZe and do covers - or you're Blind Johnny Death and do rock-a-billy, or Fat Vinny and do solo "blue" or what have you - or you're Second Offense, Eyes of Anguish, or SeVeR (who recently lost their singer?) and do straight up metal or metalcore. you're all musicians and no matter what, it is a business. Like bassist_25 said - compromises will have to be made, no matter who you are - whether you have to compromise if you do originals or covers, or if you have to compromise traveling or staying in the general area, or anything like that. I'll give you an example from the home front - Eyes of Anguish is an all original metal-core band - we've tried home shows, we've done the County Line Inn, and other places - but we realized that at this time, that area just isn't ready for what E.o.A brings to the table - but we realized other places are, so what do I do, as a businessman and head of management? I beseeched friendlier waters and different environments - a lot can be said that we travel to Du Bois to do what we consider "home" shows - we travel to Pittsburgh to get some exposure - we'll be traveling to Philadelphia, Baltimore, D.C. Reading and the like just to get some damn kind of fan base, and we all realize this is what has to be done because these are the compromises that have to be made.
To the subject of Rob saying that people need to stop pissing and moaning about cover acts stealing all the shows? How so? How would a cover band be stealing anything - look - it's been said a million times on here, bars are businesses - and in this area big business = cover bands.. if you ran a bar - you'd either do the same thing, or be hurting for business on Saturday nites. You want an example.. take a drive down 522 Saturday nite - go past the County Line Inn.. I guarantee you that the parking lot for that place will be packed, PACKED, to see Bad DaZe - then keep driving, go into Shirleysburg, there won't be a soul at Whitsels Pub. The fact is - Bar owners are looking at it from a business standpoint.. this is what pays the bills.. who are you to piss and moan saying that they're stealing your shows - because they will bring in over 100 people and you wouldn't? Yeah maybe you would bring in a good sized crowd.. maybe you have a strong following - but if you have a strong following.. they'll go anywhere you play (that's why they call it a "following" key part of that word.. "follow") so if you're bitching about anybody stealing your shows.. stop! You're either not good enough for business, or not aggressive enough with business to get that date - and besides, just because they're playing there this week - doesn't mean the bar shuts down the other 51 weeks of the year.. or do they?
I respect all musicians because Im not one. I cant play a guitar - or drums, or bass, and I can't sing - but that doesnt mean I hate everybody who can. Whether you're cover or original - it still takes the same amount of work to get the job done, and in this area - cover bands rule, the story is different down here in the Harrisburg Metro-plex, where cover bands are shunned, and labeled "Clone Rock" by certain factions of original music - but thats because down here.. original music is king - and it has been for a long time, and will be forever. In fact, the cover scene is so dead in Berks County - that the Silo Night Club and Energy Bar - is now taking ANY Cover bands, to play Saturday nites at the Energy bar - and keeping the Silo Night Club for original acts.. fine job by Frank and the crew at the Silo.
I know some of the things I say here aren't the most popular opinions, and Im surely not the most popular guy here - but the fact is, whether I disagree w/ you or not - I respect your opinion and will listen and take it in just the same. I may disagree with you, and if I do - you will hear my side of the argument, but in a clear, respectful manner that all debate should have from both sides. I'm not sure if anything i just said here makes sense or covers anything that wasnt already hit on - if not, I apologize and you can burn me out back after the game tonite (I got 20 bucks in the office pool waiting for me if Indy wins, in this case, the difference between me and the one guy I beat - was I picked the Steelers and he didnt) but meh, Im out.
**edit** it should be known that in case you mis-understand the wording, when i mention rob - im only mentioning him in name, and not disagreeing with him, im on his side w/ this one lol
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bassist_25
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6815
- Joined: Monday Dec 09, 2002
- Location: Indiana
Very well said!!!! Though I have to disagree with the comment about Country music. If anything, I'd like to see some Country bands around here have more success. With the exception of the Moore Brothers Band (and its various offshoots) and Smokin' Joe and the Wildhorse Band, I can't really name any local Country acts that have gained wide success. But then again, I want to see any band that puts in the effort and puts out a great product, whether they're Rock, Country, Blues, Jazz, Industrial, Classical, or whatever, do well and take their music to the masses. That's what I never understood about the whole "scenster" mentality and their whining about "selling out" when a band gets some success. If I like someone's music, I want them to have the most success possible. But that's a rant for another time. *LOL*AtoMikEnRtiA wrote: The novel he wrote too.....
"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.