GOT GAS?

[Imgrimm01]

Bill Clinton --> Greatest President of ALL time !! infact one of the 3 GREATEST MEN of ALL TIME !! Bush is a BafOOn , A rich one but a BafOOn none the less ! I say steal it you need gas can't afford it ... STEAL IT !! Steal from corporate America !! My new Motto.

[lonewolf]

The rise is gas prices can be directly attributed to several factors over the past several years.
When oil became a publicly speculated (traded) commodity on the stock market, it was taken out of the hands of simple supply and demand economics. It has become a business proposition where investors are merely speculating the future prices, and this is what was driving the prices upward. There is not a lack of the product, nor is there an overly increased demand (the Hummer theory is nice, but a little over-contrived). The problem is that since the advent of OPEC (and sorry for all of you Bush bashers, this has no bearing on him, rather an implement of a Democratic stronghold in Congress), oil production has increased in all oil supplying nations for distribution throughout the world, but the investors on the open market are speculating as to the "industry" as a whole (the money spent to drill, pump, and haul the crude oil) not the actual amount of the product at all, and this has driven the price up. There is no more demand or lack of supply from when gas was $1.59 than now at $2.99.

Sorry, not buying it. Show me your charts.

Oil futures and OPEC have both been around for decades.

Speculation with puts or calls on any commodity can have volatile short-term effects, but it always snaps back to supply and demand. Speculation is Big Oil's excuse.

World oil production is outpacing consumption by the slimmest of margins. If not for synthetic additives and substitutes, it has lagged consumption for the past DECADE. On a daily basis, that margin information along with projected production capability and unforeseen "events" is what is driving the oil futures "speculation". If this was all pure speculation, eventually it would snap back, just like the .com bubble.

As far as the SUV "theory", I agree that it is a very small part of the problem, however, with all our technology, the U.S. should be cutting back on oil consumption, not increasing it. Half of our problem has come from a "cheap oil" lifestyle that includes SUVs, racking up 3,000 miles a month and general pissing away of cheap gas.

OK, I pulled the link to make the page nice again. BP's data isn't any different than any other data that I saw...it was just a lot neater.

[F19Drummer]

We can all go back and forth about who is to blame for the high cost of gas and oil products. Make no mistake about it, it is going to hit all of us hard, especially in the months to come. That being said, compared to what the people of LA, MS, and AL are facing, we have it easy. Let's not forget about our fellow Americans who are greatly suffering. We can debate blame later.

[MOONDOGGY]

http://www.pennsylvaniagasprices.com/

[ASB10]

Lonewolf....your "charts" are rather one-sided....but we can say this, if this is a simple supply and demand problem, then so be it, then we all have no reason to make any noise about this.....we deserve our gas prices.....and yes Big Oil is to blame (never said it wasn't, my family owns a mom and pop independent oil company - a thorn in Big Oil's side).....the fact is that when any product is exploited for a commercial profit, there will be those who suffer consequences.

This is the snap back effect...right here....as oil profits enlarge, more and more is invested....(.com boom was a great example).....this just happens to be on a much broader and slower moving scale....oil prices have been steadily rising for the past four years (as well as gas prices)

OPEC has been around for decades.....as has oil futures....but there are more people and countries involved now...isn't there? too many cooks and not enough stew.....


anyways.....I'm not having a pissing match about oil/gas.....I am surprised there has been no talk of a benefit yet (or maybe I missed it somewhere???)

[MOONDOGGY]

I don't have a side here. Frankly, I don't even understand half of what was talked about in this thread. I don't understand much of this political mumbojumbo either. What does makes sense to me though, is that it is just logical to do what you can to save a few dollars. Don't buy less gas for the sake of boycotting 'the man'. Do it because you decided not to drive your vehicle as much.

This means that if you live within 3 or 5 (heck even 10) miles from where you work, ride a bike! You could even burn some calories, you fat American! Don't make your little late-nite munchy runs to your local Wal-mart Supercenter unless it is a life or death situation. All of that change that you have in your car's ash tray and down in your seat cracks can be gathered into a jar. After a few weeks of accumulation, it could possibly be enough for a little bit of gas! Penny pinching goes well with other items as well. For example, you could take all those thin little remains of old soapbars in your shower and mash 'em together to make a useable ball of soap! Nonetheless it saves money.

The last several posts on this board (probably on all boards) have been nothing but beyotching and passing the buck on the high gas prices. Typical of the fat, lazy American I guess. Sitting at your computers with your gigantic sized bag of Doritos and your alcoholic beverages at your side! If your gonna complain, then at least be an active whiner! Do something to help your self survive, and then complain a little.

Now, since I have made a few people upset and made myself out to be an effiecient economic god of some sort, you may be thinking, "Is this guy a slim and fit activist and penny pincher??????"
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Heck no!!! I am American.

[rreihart]

I say steal it you need gas can't afford it ... STEAL IT !! Steal from corporate America !! My new Motto.

Actually, I can't believe that I haven't seen the classic "gas-n-go" happen yet since the prices have gotten out of control. I am sure I will before it's all said and done.

[RobTheDrummer]

If our congressmen are so concerned about their people, they will take their pay raise and put it into gas companies to alleviate the prices. Either that, or take some of the money for the highways and put it into gas. Better than putting it into a failing mass transit system. People want to keep putting gas prices on the government, well get the government to do something about it.

[bassist_25]

I say steal it you need gas can't afford it ... STEAL IT !! Steal from corporate America !! My new Motto.

Actually, I can't believe that I haven't seen the classic "gas-n-go" happen yet since the prices have gotten out of control. I am sure I will before it's all said and done.

So am I. They're looting in the South, so I wouldn't be surprised if people start looting at the pump. I'd urge people not to because often times the workers get docked paid/fired when people steal at the pumps. It's bullshit because there's not much someone behind the counter can do except take down a license plate number and call the police. I guess it goes to show that just because you're a high-level executive with an MBA making decisions like this, it doesn't mean that you have any common sense. But I digress.

People often say that it's "liberal guilt" when someone says that Americans are fat and greedy. This crisis is going to make a lot of people reevulate and sacrifice. People always say empty bullshit like, "I support the troops", but they only support the troops insofar as it doesn't affect their lives back home. Let's see what happens when people do have to sacrifice. I was planning to purchase a new bass within the next month or two, but they may be put on hold because I may have to use the money to pay for an apartment next summer just so I can take two classes at Lock Haven main (because I probaly won't be able to afford the gas to get there). I'm already anticipating a drop-off of our bookings, because a lot people are going to be cutting entertainment out of their budgets. Let's see how people react to this.

[HurricaneBob]

Get yer syphon hose here!

[Jim Price]

Stealing gas at the pumps was already happening prior to this week's events. I know it was being reported on local newscasts.

I imagine you might see a lot of service stations switch to a "pay first" policy before they let you pump gas.

[rreihart]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/wtae/20050901/lo_wtae/2914168

Pay close attention the statments at the end of the article about tax money going toward roads. PA's roads get voted every year as some of the worst in the country by OTR truckers and other automotive authorities/groups...I would hate to see them get any worse! However, that's not going to change the fact that I am cutting out unnecesary driving with hopes of saving a few bucks.

[RAM Z]

Don't blame the Hummer! To blame the all the newer SUV owners for the gas problem is stupid. You can't tell me that any new Escalade,or Yukon is any worse on gas than what the cars from the 60's,70's and 80's were and currently are. Vehicles today are more fuel friendly than ever! I can assure you there are alot of older vehicles still on the road that are not so fuel friendly. This country is however hell bent on powerful everything! I do not think every new car or truck has to be 300 horsepower in order to get up speed to pass another car nor do I think I need a Yukon to get my two kids to their school functions.Buy a vehicle that truly fits your needs and not so you can keep up with the Jone's so to speak! I've owned several Hot Rod cars and they were all super hard on gas. I sold my 68 Camaro Z/28, which I wanted to give my daughter when she was old enough to drive, because I couldn't afford to run it any longer, but ya know what, it's just a stupid car! I sure as hell ain't gonna take food from my kids mouthes to run some gas guzzeler to be cool whether it's a Yukon,Hummer or Camaro!I never ,untill this past year , owned a car or truck that was even in the 90's. Let me tell ya there is a big difference in the milage in the older vehicles. I am looking to buy a motorcycle soon to make the summer months a little easier on the old wallet. Gas prices suck right now no matter what the cause of it is! The only thing you can do is try to get by the best you can any do every little thing to cut back on your own fuel consumption and not just bitch about what everyone else is doing. DO YOUR PART!

[MOONDOGGY]

Amen! Here here! Reverend!

[f.sciarrillo]

I knew as soon as I said clinton sux I would get lashings. All I can say is if you liked the inbreed then you will support him no matter what. If you hate bush, you will not support him no matter what.

I support Bush no matter what. Then maybe if a democrat was in office things would be looked upon differently right now .. I know the liberal media would be showing a lot of good thigs that have been happening as of late ..

[bassist_25]

There's no such thing as the "liberal media". The fact that the media portrayed Howard Dean as some crazy leftist (when an intelligent and objective person would have seen that he wasn't) proves that. The media is a business; it portrays whatever gets the best ratings. Following a president (or any other political figure) like a lemming no matter what he or she does is a recipe for disaster. All public service people should be scrutinized.

I've thought about this for a while, and it kind of pissed me off that the government didn't alleviate some of the tax on gas to drive down the price. Then I realized that would have been stupid since the problem isn't just price but supply. A lower price probaly would have dried up the supply as everyone quit rationing fuel. Like I said, I want to see how people act when they do have to sacrifice. We've lived so long as sybarites, I'm actually scared of what yuppie America is going to do right now. Maybe this hurricane will make us more empathetic to the less fortunate and not blame charitable stances on "liberal guilt".

[f.sciarrillo]

I say liberal media Paul because the media is trying to show the worse of the President. They never show what good is coming of this. Fox is probably the only station that showed some good, but, they show both good and bad ..

I agree it's ratings. But, only showing the bad of something is what is making the people of this country hate the way things are. When Clinton was going threw the impeachment process the media was all on his side, saying that he did do wrong and he should be forgiven. Bush goes after people who attack us and they say he is the devil and should tarred and feathered.

So, if you ask me whether the media is left or right wing, I would say a resounding left ....

I agree with you as far as tax on gas. but, I also don't thin that would fix anything. This whole thing is OPEC price gouging. Bush said today that he is going to call opec tomorrow and demand that they lower the price of barrels. The costs are getting entirely out of hand. All it is is OPEC trying to line their pockets. I know we are short, but, I don't think we are that short. Plus there are countries we get oil from who said they will lower the price per barrel .. Hopefully we see a price decrease here soon .

[bassist_25]

OPEC is running at full or near full output. The problem is that we are demanding more oil when the supply cannot be met, which, as I've been saying, has driven up the equilibrium price of oil. If you were looking at a demand/supply chart, there's a downward slopping curve which represents demand and an upward slopping curve which represents the amount of product an industry is willing to supply at certain prices. The place where the two lines intersect is the equillibrium price; it's where the full amount of demand is met without any surplus or shortage. Whenever something other than price causes a product to increase in demand, the demand curve shifts to the right. This of course is going to make the equilibrium point higher. Much of this can be contributed to people buying wasteful vehicles (as I said in the other thread, I'm not immediatley slamming SUV/V8 owners. Some people need large vehicles for a reason, but the people who buy them simply for status purposes deserve a lot of blame), and China becoming industralized. Oil is a finite resource; no new oil patches have been discovered in about 30 years. Output cannot be significantly increased. Since about half of our oil production is offline right now, the supply curve just moved to the left. That of course is going to make the equilibrium point rise. I'm not trying to take the side of the oil companies, because they are greedy fucks, but I'm just trying to shed some light on the reality of the situation.

The only real solution is, as Ron pointed out earlier, to ween ourselves off of fossil fuels. I'm a pretty enviro-conscious person, but I say tap Alaska. The problem is that it will take years to do that. A lot people get scared when you mention nuclear power, but I've been impressed with what I've heard about it, and it's a lot cleaner than burning coal.

[f.sciarrillo]

OPEC is running at full or near full output. The problem is that we are demanding more oil when the supply cannot be met, which, as I've been saying, has driven up the equilibrium price of oil. If you were looking at a demand/supply chart, there's a downward slopping curve which represents demand and an upward slopping curve which represents the amount of product an industry is willing to supply at certain prices. The place where the two lines intersect is the equillibrium price; it's where the full amount of demand is met without any surplus or shortage. Whenever something other than price causes a product to increase in demand, the demand curve shifts to the right. This of course is going to make the equilibrium point higher. Much of this can be contributed to people buying wasteful vehicles (as I said in the other thread, I'm not immediatley slamming SUV/V8 owners. Some people need large vehicles for a reason, but the people who buy them simply for status purposes deserve a lot of blame), and China becoming industralized. Oil is a finite resource; no new oil patches have been discovered in about 30 years. Output cannot be significantly increased. Since about half of our oil production is offline right now, the supply curve just moved to the left. That of course is going to make the equilibrium point rise. I'm not trying to take the side of the oil companies, because they are greedy fucks, but I'm just trying to shed some light on the reality of the situation.

The only real solution is, as Ron pointed out earlier, to ween ourselves off of fossil fuels. I'm a pretty enviro-conscious person, but I say tap Alaska. The problem is that it will take years to do that. A lot people get scared when you mention nuclear power, but I've been impressed with what I've heard about it, and it's a lot cleaner than burning coal.

They are some good points and you are right about the supply and demand. But Nuclear power is something that cost a lot of money to start. You can get the same if not more od an effect out of Hydro or Wind .. They are a hell of a lot cheaper than nuclear ..

You will see the sells of hydro vehicles going up .. Especially with ford releasing a hybrid version of the Escape .. I want an suv, I wanted one for a long time. I will not buy one though because of the price of gas. The Escape Hybrid on the other hand is something to look at .. It gets 36 miles a gallon in the city and 31 miled a gallon on the highway. It comes in both four wheel drive and front wheel drive. It is a nice suv. I look for the other automakers to follow ..

[jim bagrosky]

I was right next to a guy at sheets the other night who had a ball cap and shades on. He puts $37.50 in his tank and bolts! By the time I get into the store to pay they were on the phone calling the fuzz. By the time I waited in line and finally made the register, 2 of altoona's finest were there. I overheard the cashier telling them that was the 3rd gas-n-go that day! I laughed out loud. I agree with Bobby, you need gas, you can't afford it, nobody cares? STEAL IT.

People would rather commit a crime than pay 3$ per gallon for gas. It's bullshit. These fuckers are robbing us blind, I cant blame anyone for returning the favor!

[bassist_25]

It would also be very expensive to utilize hydro for power. Special stations would be needed to service that. Wind is a good resource of power, but you can only put up wind mills where there's a significant amount of wind.

As I've said earlier, the price of gas sucks ass: I'm not denying that. I'm literally stressed out over it (especially considering that's it's probaly going to affect my gigs, which is pretty much how I'm putting myself through college), but it needs to be high right now. If it weren't, people wouldn't change their fuel consumption habits, and we really would have a fuel shortage. It's after the hurricane is over and the refineries go back online that I'm worried about. Are gas companies going to lower their prices? I doubt that those greedy fucks are.

The upside may be that people will quit being so economically irresponsible and won't buy Humvees and shit. C'mon, who the hell needs a Humvee except the United States military?

I use to be all about a free market and just letting demand dictate what products are made available to public without any government interference, but this crisis is making me reconsider some of my economic philosophies.

[BDR]

My left, big toe is sore ... I'm pretty sure Bill Clinton is behind this ...

NOTE: When watching Fox News, don't forget your rose-colored glasses ...

r:>)

[ChromeCultStudios]

Montana governor says coal could ease fuel woes

Montana’s governor believes he may have the solution to America’s growing energy problems: coal.

Gov. Brian Schweitzer told Reuters news service that, using a process discovered in Germany 80 years ago, it is possible to convert coal into gasoline, diesel and aviation fuel.

Though it has been around since 1923, the technology was not considered economical as long as oil was less than $30 a barrel because it costs $32 to convert coal into a barrel of oil.

However, with current prices more than double that rate, Schweitzer said now is the time to seriously consider using the technology.

“We can do it cheaper than importing oil from the sheiks, dictators, rats and crooks that we’re bringing it from right now,” he said.

Schweitzer added that it would be possible for Montana to produce gasoline, diesel and aviation fuel for $1 per gallon.

According to the Environmental Protection Agency, diesel fuel made with this process – known as Fischer-Tropsch – produces less carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxide and particulate matter.

Fischer-Tropsch technology has been in use on a small scale and in other countries for years, most notably South Africa, according to the EPA.

Schweitzer told Reuters that constructing a Fischer-Tropsch plant would cost about $1.5 billion, but added that the recently passed Energy Bill contains an 80 percent loan guarantee for a Fischer-Tropsch plant.

[lonewolf]

Something else that is significantly affecting the price of oil (and all imports) is that the dollar is devalued because of the current trade deficit, especially with China. It presently costs $1.25 for one eurodollar. If that was back to $1 = 1e, a $69 barrel of oil would only cost $55 and $3 gas would most likely cost about $2.40. Pre-Katrina levels would be below $2.

I'm a big fan of controlled fusion. It will be a nexus in world history when the 1st plant goes online. We are almost there:

http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/17/1/6/1

[songsmith]

Halliburton Elves. I knew it!!!!------>JMS