BAND SCENE GONE IN JOHNSTOWN - HELP!

[ZappasXWife]

Mtv making Miami hip hop central didn't help.

NOT JUST MIAMI! And I think this is a huge factor as to why DJ's are more popular. I thought this music (?) genre would have died out 5 years ago but it keeps going.

[gymnast]

It is true that less people stray far from home anymore, due to the chance of getting a DUI. Shooters would get you a cab ride home for free if you felt you were too intoxicated, but unfortuneatly not many people read the sign on the way in, so they didn't know about it.
In Indiana I think Wolfendale's has a bus that if you live in the county the bus will pick you up and take you home.

We need to organize something for west central PA. We need a bus, and a group of young college students 18 - almost 21 with good driving records. Think about it. We could charge a flat rate based on mileage. So if 6 people need picked up in Portage and taken to Johnstown, then all 6 would split the cost. Oh and we would need a sweet name for on the bus, like drunken wagon.

[esa]

How does one increase the attendance in order for bands to give DJs such as DJ Hock a run for their money..

Two words:
Cage. Dancers.

[esa]

We need to organize something for west central PA. We need a bus, and a group of young college students 18 - almost 21 with good driving records. Think about it. We could charge a flat rate based on mileage. So if 6 people need picked up in Portage and taken to Johnstown, then all 6 would split the cost. Oh and we would need a sweet name for on the bus, like drunken wagon.

That's a very good idea. I'd pay $5 for a ride to and from bar X to my car/house/pickupdropoff destination...Okay..so It's five bucks...but when you get 30 people paying you five bucks, you'll make $60 for that. Er...you can make about $150 and then $20 to fill up the tank and keep on going. It would be a great scheme.
We could get some metal camoflauge on the outside and call it the Drunk Tank...

[bassist_25]

I'm one of the younger people here at this site, so I often hear about the so called "Good Ol' Days", where the music scene was supposably better than what it is now. I often wince a little when I read threads like this. I don't mean this particular thread, because clubs shutting down/not having bands is a crappy thing all around, but the "We're not seeing 500+ people through the door" attitude always rubs me the wrong way for some reason.

After a few years absence, I've been back gigging steady for almost two years, and aside from a few slow nights at City Limits and the Valley Inn, the places have seen their fair share of patrons. I don't buy the whole "People don't care about live music" bit one bit. Bands still have followings, but as always, those bands had to work for those followings.

And I have to say that what Griff said about traveling to various areas is the absolute truth. Actually, it should be published and then touted as the second Gospel. It would be nice if we could all play in our backyards, but that's not reality. If you play in the same town week in and week out, you're eventually going to burn yourself out. It has to do with your goals though. If you just want to play a few tunes on the weekend and make a little spending money and have a good time, then there might be no reason to book outside of a small area. If you want to build a large fan base, make serious money, sell merchandise, get on the cover of PA Musician, ect., then you better start booking out of town. There's a reason why Vs. the Earth isn't just playing the local Altoona clubs anymore.

Sorry, didn't mean to be so negative/hostile with this post. I guess I just had a "Bobby Watters - quite whining about paying your dues" moment . But in all seriousness, each market has its own ups and downs. You just have to learn how to deal with it. We played Westmont Gardens last month, and while it wasn't a packed house, I was actually happy with the turnout, especially after all of the horror stories I've heard about J-Town. It was also a very nice paying gig for the first time through the door.

[Bag]

It is true that less people stray far from home anymore, due to the chance of getting a DUI. Shooters would get you a cab ride home for free if you felt you were too intoxicated, but unfortuneatly not many people read the sign on the way in, so they didn't know about it.
In Indiana I think Wolfendale's has a bus that if you live in the county the bus will pick you up and take you home.

We need to organize something for west central PA. We need a bus, and a group of young college students 18 - almost 21 with good driving records. Think about it. We could charge a flat rate based on mileage. So if 6 people need picked up in Portage and taken to Johnstown, then all 6 would split the cost. Oh and we would need a sweet name for on the bus, like drunken wagon.

Great idea UNTIL the freakin insurance issue comes up. That expense would make it a money losing venture. We wanted to bus kids into the bowling center and were gonna buy a bus. The insurance "needed" killed that idea pretty quick.

Ice Master.... er..... um, Bag

[JayBird]

Around the Corner stopped doing bands, because they signed a huge deal with Johnstown's Arena Football team. After every home game (usually on Friday or Saturdays) the team will venture down to AtC to do a meet a great. So have the football team there and also paying out for a band wasn't going to mesh well. So until the football season is over it looks like there won't be too many bands in there. I've talked a couple time with the booking agent/production man for AtC and he's actually moving his equipment out of the place and the stage will be vacant until further notice. The place is basically a DJ/dance club at this point...yeah! <---that was sarcastic.

[gymnast]

I didn't even consider the insurance. Now my dream is dead.

[byndrsn]

I didn't even consider the insurance. Now my dream is dead.

That is okay, I know someone who will give you a ride!! (Then he might even take you out to see the show!)

[ASB10]

The Johnstown bar scene has been dead for a long time...and we are beating a dead horse here....American Standard/Third Standard has played at damn near every bar in town since our days as UPJ students, and for one reason or another we have decided not to return to each of those bars...Westmont Gardens - were extremely rude to us, seems to be a trend I guess (and it was only our second show in a bar..ever, and that was in the year 2000...cue flashlights and the Max Weinberg 7....) G-Man - run over by Shooters, and that was our best drawing bar while in college.....Pony - always seems a little somber and uptight, and I don't think that locals really ever go there, because we would always see our regular fans, and the regular drunks, and it's too damn small (or is too much bar); and there are more that I won't waste space with....the J-Town scene is boring.....that's why we avoid the city and focus much more attention elsewhere

[dayzichick]

If the Boulevard cancelled all bands that is news to me. As far as I know we are booked there the rest of the year. Guess I should call to make sure. The Pony Lounge is my favorite place to play. Stock's 56 Pak is looking for bands, The Bunker in Windber is looking for bands. The Johnstown Brewing Company just called me today, so they must be looking as well. Griffiths is a good place to play as other people have said earlier, as is the Country Inn. I was in the South Side Saloon the other day, had no idea they even hired bands but that would be a good place for a three piece or acoustic band. So that's 8 bars I just came up with that are all still hiring in the Johnstown area. And I didn't even mention some of the smaller places that have bands like Ohio Street Lounge or Magro's. Yes we lost two of the major clubs in Shooters and Daughertys but there are still places to play. I"m not sayin this town is hoppin with night life but there are places to go and bands to see every weekend. The problem is people not going out to hear a band they have not heard of before, and the club owners expecting instant success from new bands. I think that would be more accurate of this area. People like what is familiar to them, they do not like change here for some reason. I've posted on this topic before. I've been dying to see Shades Of June and some of the other bands on rockpage that I saw have been playing at the Grill and the Gardens but our schedules didn't work out. I am among the crowd that will look in the paper and go see the band I've never heard before. We need more people to join me for new bands to stay in this area.

[Bert|Evil]

I'm one of the younger people here at this site, so I often hear about the so called "Good Ol' Days", where the music scene was supposably better than what it is now. I often wince a little when I read threads like this. I don't mean this particular thread, because clubs shutting down/not having bands is a crappy thing all around, but the "We're not seeing 500+ people through the door" attitude always rubs me the wrong way for some reason.

Well, I'm not much older than you. I was fortunate to be in some bands that were doing well, and it was assumed that I was 21 (yet very far from it). Basically, your average bar gig today would have been a "mini concert" then. Even better, most clubs made a point to inject some Pittsburgh bands into the mix once a week or so to keep it from getting boring.

Since this is a thread about Johnstown rock, I'll tell you about what it was like in the early 90's. Daiquiri's and Rumors were very much in competition, and they liked to have hair metal bands as much as possible. Dougherty's came around about '92/'93, which made 3 clubs within a 3 or 4 mile radius. So, if you were adventurous, you probably paid $10 to $15 in cover alone on a Friday or Saturday night.

Of course, things came to a serious slow down. None of those clubs are operating now. So, when you see someone keystroke a comment about the current state of night life in Johnstown, this is what you need to compare it to.

[Bert|Evil]

Around the Corner stopped doing bands, because they signed a huge deal with Johnstown's Arena Football team. After every home game (usually on Friday or Saturdays) the team will venture down to AtC to do a meet a great. So have the football team there and also paying out for a band wasn't going to mesh well. So until the football season is over it looks like there won't be too many bands in there. I've talked a couple time with the booking agent/production man for AtC and he's actually moving his equipment out of the place and the stage will be vacant until further notice. The place is basically a DJ/dance club at this point...yeah! <---that was sarcastic.

One has to wonder if this will lead to a "meet and greet" for the Chiefs. And, if it is like any other Chief's hangout, it will be a "meet and greet" for doctors' wives and other hoes.

[homerski]

Thats definatly a good theory Griff, we don't move around a whole lot but even from Windber to Armaugh to South Fork to Westmont to Ebensburg etc is moving around a little. Alot of Johnstown bands don't want to travel much and I think therefore burn the crowd out. You guys ( Homers Army ) are moving around a whole bunch, I'd probably do that too but I'm too lazy to drive too far to drop of a promo kit.

I'm also seeing people not wanting to travel as much, in other words the people from Ebensburg aren't coming to Windber to see us and Vice Versa, I think alot anymore people are sticking with there home town bar and only going out if they like whats on the schedule for the night. Has anyone else noticed this ? It seems like we have a select group at different places but not as many " Follower" as bands had in the past? Any one else seeing this ?

Tony, you're right. People are staying close to home. I am the Manager of "Homer's Army" and as such, I am the official evangelist of all things "Homer".

I am finding that most folks won't drive more than 10 miles from home. That is a tremendous challenge for band promotion. We have to establish what I like to call "pockets of notoriety" in each area that we play, and unfortunately, this is done by winning over one convert at time.

Honest to God, if we play in Bakerton, it does nothing for our crowds in Patton. And Johnstown has about ten different pockets. We play quite a bit in Indiana, but no one knows us in Homer City. Altoona is a whole 'nuther ball game.

Our band has been together now for almost a year, and we have played more gigs than any upstart band should be allowed to - because i am FEROCIOUS in my marketing of this band, but still we are virtually unknown. Like others have said, this is a numbers game. It's the old 80/20 rule of marketing. If you have something to sell, and you contact 100 potential customers, only 20 will have any interest in your product. Out of 100 of those interested parties, only 20 will purchase your product. In other words, even if you have a great product (band) you still have to perform for 100 people to hopefully gain 4 customers (fans) who will come back for more. It's called "paying your dues", and with more clubs closing or excluding bands our marketplace is dwindling.

John Homerski Jr.

[Bert|Evil]

It is true that less people stray far from home anymore, due to the chance of getting a DUI. Shooters would get you a cab ride home for free if you felt you were too intoxicated, but unfortuneatly not many people read the sign on the way in, so they didn't know about it.
In Indiana I think Wolfendale's has a bus that if you live in the county the bus will pick you up and take you home.

Yeah, I never saw that sign. I wish that you would have called my attention to it when it was open.

UPJ tried that bus idea for a while, and it would go to every "happening" bar or club Thursday through Saturday. Don't know why they stopped it. Oh wait... it's probably because there's next to nothing to do.

[Victor Synn]

We've had major difficulty pulling in a mutually satisfying situation in J-town too. Just seems to me that quite a few of the people involved with the inner workings of these clubs either:
A) Have no clue as to how to book, promote, and treat bands or
B) Have no idea as to how to run their establishment overall so that bands do well for themselves and the club.

We've played a few of the J-town clubs in our 2 years on the scene and I can't recall a mutually satisfying experience in any of them. Westmont Gardens was a joke last time we were there. We told Craven about what we went through and as our soundguy, he couldn't believe what we had to do there and the way we were treated. Hell, we couldn't believe it. So I basically said to my bandmates that unless they offered us $2000/show, it wouldn't be worth the headaches that go along with playing there. Anyone that has or does play Westmont knows, that will never happen. The wierd part is we actually had a decent crowd there last time in. Go figure...

In any case, what J-town really needs is a club owner that has the right amount of finances behind him/her to get a decent sized room, courteous staff, and advertises their establishment and bands in the way they should be advertised. Also, they would need to know how to treat the band with regard to pay and amenities. If that doesn't happen, I'm afraid it'll be a long time before that area has any kind of real life.

[shadesofjuneGuitar]

If the Boulevard cancelled all bands that is news to me. As far as I know we are booked there the rest of the year. Guess I should call to make sure. The Pony Lounge is my favorite place to play. Stock's 56 Pak is looking for bands, The Bunker in Windber is looking for bands. The Johnstown Brewing Company just called me today, so they must be looking as well. Griffiths is a good place to play as other people have said earlier, as is the Country Inn. I was in the South Side Saloon the other day, had no idea they even hired bands but that would be a good place for a three piece or acoustic band. So that's 8 bars I just came up with that are all still hiring in the Johnstown area. And I didn't even mention some of the smaller places that have bands like Ohio Street Lounge or Magro's. Yes we lost two of the major clubs in Shooters and Daughertys but there are still places to play. I"m not sayin this town is hoppin with night life but there are places to go and bands to see every weekend. The problem is people not going out to hear a band they have not heard of before, and the club owners expecting instant success from new bands. I think that would be more accurate of this area. People like what is familiar to them, they do not like change here for some reason. I've posted on this topic before. I've been dying to see Shades Of June and some of the other bands on rockpage that I saw have been playing at the Grill and the Gardens but our schedules didn't work out. I am among the crowd that will look in the paper and go see the band I've never heard before. We need more people to join me for new bands to stay in this area.

I appreciate the interest in our band ... and I wish there were 1000's more like you...

THE FOLLOWING IS A RESPONSE TO SEVERAL OTHER POSTS:

I have been in bands for over 10 years, and I feel as if I have paid my share of dues in the local music scene. I have been screwed over so many times by J-town bars in general that my ass is sore.

I realize that no one meant to be disrespectful to anyone on this forum on this thread, but ... when someone that is relatively new to the music scene responds to a thread such as this .... maybe they shouldn't say things like ... the band's should practice more, or ... you have to pay your dues.

The truth is ... the people this is truly affecting (for the most part) are in really good, talented bands that have been around for a while. If you are in a new band, relatively unpracticed or unseasoned ... then you should almost expect to have some negative things happen. So, I appreciate all the love that my band has gotten over the years and all the positive things that were mentioned on this board, but ... the truth is - THIS ISN'T THE BANDS' FAULT. This is a way bigger issue than that ...

[Peachz28]

Both places have reasonable cover, resonable beer prices and are always a good time. Get yer canes or walkers out and come on down.

Yes I do agree with reasonable prices and a good time, but I have a very hard time giving a bar money when they will no longer let certain bands play because they do not like having "that kind of reputation", meaning no more metal.

I will no longer give the Country Inn my money.

[Peachz28]

In any case, what J-town really needs is a club owner that has the right amount of finances behind him/her to get a decent sized room, courteous staff, and advertises their establishment and bands in the way they should be advertised. Also, they would need to know how to treat the band with regard to pay and amenities. If that doesn't happen, I'm afraid it'll be a long time before that area has any kind of real life.

Hello?!? This will never ever happen - atleast not the "club owner that has the right amount of finances behind him/her" or the "the band with regard to pay and amenities". We can't even get a crappy bar owner to allow bands to play in this area anymore. They are not making enough money for the bars - for the bar owners to even see some sort of payoff.

I think everyone has agreed Westmont Gardens is a crappy place to play as far as getting treated fairly. But if your looking to get treated like a rock star in this area good luck - heck at this point we are lucky if we can get a band in the door. Until the people begin to show more interest in bands and begin to pull away from Karoke or DJ night - we are in deep trouble.

[Atomic Jim]

I just spoke with Don at the Boulevard Grill because Atomic Blonde was booked there for June 4 and I was concerned when someone wrote that they had cancled all their bands. Don told me that they are definately having bands and faxed me their schedule.

June 3: Jax
June 4: ATOMIC BLONDE - THAT'S US, COME OUT FOR SOME GREAT 80S POP, ROCK AND NEW WAVE (NO METAL OR HAIR).

June 10: Ribbon Grass
June 11: Jimmy Sweatpants
June 17: Tim and Larz
June 18: 5-2-1
June 24: Desperadoes
June 25: Dancin Dan
July 1: Jimmy V.
July 2: Ribbon Grass

Doesn't look like a club that's cancelled all its bands, does it?

[Quail Whale]

Me & Zappa's Wife used to hang out at Cisco's Cantina in Altoona. Now that was a great venue for live music!

[bassist_25]

I realize that no one meant to be disrespectful to anyone on this forum on this thread, but ... when someone that is relatively new to the music scene responds to a thread such as this .... maybe they shouldn't say things like ... the band's should practice more, or ... you have to pay your dues.

Again, my post wasn't meant as a direct attack to anyone, but I should have figured it would ruffle some feathers (and if you reread my post, I said that I've been back playing steady for two years AFTER AN ABSCENCE; I've had my ass kicked by the music industry before that, and it's been kicked pretty fucking hard, so please don't turn this into a pissing contest). The points I was getting at are this:

1. The local music scene is just like any other market: It's driven by demand. You can either choose to beat a dead horse, play to the chairs and complain, or find another market. It goes back to what Griff and I were talking about: You can't always play in your backyard. Believe me, it's a very sad thing that some places aren't seeing crowd turnouts like they use to, but the whole point is that it's the same thing if I nailed two boards together with some red paint, advertised it, then got pissed when nobody would buy it.

2. My point about attendance: Again, I said it wasn't directed at this thread, but it's inevitable that someone is going to come in and complain about a sparse crowd. It happens. Sometimes a bar down the street has a mechnical bull for the night or popular regional band X is at the bar across town. Find if the sparse crowd you had was due to an external variable. If so find how to solve the problem. If you play in a town with apathetic crowds who only go out to see bands they know, then that's when benefits and opening slots become important. You have to force the audience to take in your band.

3. I believe that my original post has a lot of merit to it. Go see any band with name recoginition. Chances are they'll have their shit together. Again, I truly believe in Mill's Freemarket Place of Ideas when it comes to this stuff. The product is the most important thing. People don't give the audience enough credit; for the most part, they can recognize crap bands from mediocre bands from awesome bands.

Again, I didn't set out to offend anyone, but please actually THINK about what I said before responding.

[Mackovyak]

I agree 100% with bassist_25 on all the comments he made. What do we know about the J-town music scene from the past discussion

Facts:
1. Bars are hiring more DJ's and Karaoke Shows...often at less cost to them, and drawing identical or larger crowds.

2. People are traveling only 10 miles or less due to high gas prices, DUI crackdowns, and less incentive to travel ('just saw that band last week').

3. Many bar owners have no concept of advertising or treating a band right.

4. Rock music is at a national low right now, giving people more interest in dance style music and DJ's.


So what do you do about it?
1. Give the DJ's a run for their money....discussed in a previous post....ADD CAGE DANCERS!

2. Broaden your range of travel so you're not burning out in one area. Consider playing shows in smaller places, not just the usual clubs. As someone pointed out, plenty of smaller places for "unplugged" shows, ect.
Does the Ash Street Tavern still have live music??

3. Do the footwork, advertise as much as you can. Put your own person at the door, it's not hard to take the power from the bar owner with a little talking and reason...."Look, we want to play at your bar, we'll play for the door, we'll have a person with yours to help collect. We'll advertise what we can, you can too if you want." The burden lays on you, and I know that most of you have day jobs and can't go out the week before the show and put flyers in wiper blades, but there are other methods. Look around at what others are doing.

4. Continue to support people like the Professor and Rockpage and other venues who promote live music and/or original music. If you're too cheap to buy someone's album or to pay the cover to see them when they're in your town, then what do you expect from them (I know this one is preaching to the choir, but it's relevant to the national scene in general).


OH BOY, Finally. I'm going to open a can of worms here.....
First of, this ISN'T DISRESPECTING ANYONE here, but I think it should be brought up. There are way more talented people on this board than me, and I also don't want this to seem like a cut on Ryan b/c he brought it up. Originally we used to be in big time competition in the only two bands our age out of Portage (Back in the good old days!!!!), but I have a lot of respect for him and he's a good player, so with that disclaimer......

I consider paying your dues to be working hard towards a goal, not the length of time you've been playing or exact number of times you've been screwed. Not to swap war stories, but personally playing for 10 years throughout several states, 3 different bands as well as acoustic, 4 independent releases, screwed by bars and bandmates, gained friends, lost friends, lost best friends, bought gear, sold gear, had gear stolen, throat surgery, recording school, recording studios, and the list goes on.

The stories from some of the guys on here that have been doing this 20+ years have got to be amazing.

Being a musician is like being a member of your favorite club.....you're always paying dues, each year. A very small percent will make it big and get to say, "I've paid my dues." But even they are still getting screwed, just on a bigger level......Classic Behind the Music outline, paparazzi, constant critisizing, ect.

As Hunter said...

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. "

[Peachz28]

Does the Ash Street Tavern still have live music??

I am not sure how frequent Ash Street has bands anymore, but I do know that religiously every Thursday night Ash Street hosts the Desperadoes. I have checked them out on multiple occasions and its a great time - open requests all night long.

I have rarely been able to stump them with a request - which is very impressive.

Go see them! Jaber the owner has never cancelled these guys even though I must say their crowd is wanning.

[bassist_25]

Excellent post, Justin.

Those who understand the music business will survive in the music business.

And I don't think paying dues even needs to be discussed. If anyone's been in the business for more than six months, it might as well just be assumed that that person has already started paying dues. That's why I don't discuss mine; it should already be assumed, the same way I assume everyone here who's ventured out of their garages has paid their share of dues. I'm sure if we all related our "Dues Paying Stories" here, they would all sound pretty similar: club owners screwing bands out of money, having to play in bands with crappy players, dealing with egos and drug/alcohol habits, booking agent X was a crook and screwed us out of money, bands that never made it out of the garage, ect. It's just part of the bullshit of being in the music biz. I try to eliminate that amount of BS beforehand, but I, like everyone else, have made my share of mistakes. Besides, there's still going to be a certain amount of BS one's going to have to deal with, regardless of any preventive measures done beforehand.

I remember one time reading a guy's compliant that Living Color's "We're a poor, black band schtick" turned him off because Corey Glover's dad was a successful actor. I thought give me a break; every band that's had any amount of success has had to eat their fair amount of shit on the way to the top, regardless of their backgrounds. Unlike many industries, nepotism may only get you in the door in this business, after that you have to show that you're worthy to be there.