I was talkin' with some musicians the other night and the topic of bar owners stiffing bands came up. i was asking about how to prevent it and what not and one guy mentioned there used to be something like a musicians union. i don't know if that's the correct terminology or not.
what i gathered from it was that the bands would have a written agreement with the bar/club. and if they refused to pay then they were presented with the agreement that was formed prior to the gig.
i was wondering if anyone uses written agreements anymore? or how you prevent getting stiffed by a bar owner? or do you just take their word on the pay?
- kayla.
Getting Paid
Getting Paid
`( f e n d e r)`
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RobTheDrummer
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RobTheDrummer
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As far as a contract goes with bar owners, I guess you could bring it up to the owner and get his opinion on it. He'll either agree or not really. Depends on how much you are asking.
You figure, it's the bands job to get the people out and entertained. It's the bar's job to provide venue and drinks. Without people, what good is the venue? So, if you don't draw, or if the owner thinks there is good risk involved, he may not agree on a set price. I know a lot of bands that play for cover until they are well known, and then hash out a deal after that.
It also depends on if the bar has a good or bad reputation as well. If you know it's a shitty spot, don't expect much. What I would suggest is to sell yourself and promote, it usually pays off if you are a good band...however, if your band sucks, then good luck! lol
You figure, it's the bands job to get the people out and entertained. It's the bar's job to provide venue and drinks. Without people, what good is the venue? So, if you don't draw, or if the owner thinks there is good risk involved, he may not agree on a set price. I know a lot of bands that play for cover until they are well known, and then hash out a deal after that.
It also depends on if the bar has a good or bad reputation as well. If you know it's a shitty spot, don't expect much. What I would suggest is to sell yourself and promote, it usually pays off if you are a good band...however, if your band sucks, then good luck! lol
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lonewolf
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The union is still around:
http://www.afm.org/
Legend has it that there was a time when there wouldn't be any DJ's (except for real radio celebs) because friendly groups of AFM members would drop by with their microphone stands to educate them on the finer points of taking musicians' livelihood away...
Same went for non-union bands. This was before my time.
Anyway, they have a standard contract form and a minimum hourly rate. When I stopped paying dues in 1978, the rate was $10 for the 1st hour and $5 for every hour thereafter. You were guaranteed a 15 minute break between sets. I don't know what the deal is now.
I looks like Altoona Local 564 is gone...the nearest one is in Johnstown.
http://www.afm.org/
Legend has it that there was a time when there wouldn't be any DJ's (except for real radio celebs) because friendly groups of AFM members would drop by with their microphone stands to educate them on the finer points of taking musicians' livelihood away...
Same went for non-union bands. This was before my time.
Anyway, they have a standard contract form and a minimum hourly rate. When I stopped paying dues in 1978, the rate was $10 for the 1st hour and $5 for every hour thereafter. You were guaranteed a 15 minute break between sets. I don't know what the deal is now.
I looks like Altoona Local 564 is gone...the nearest one is in Johnstown.
Last edited by lonewolf on Monday May 21, 2012, edited 1 time in total.
...Oh, the freedom of the day that yielded to no rule or time...
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ToonaRockGuy
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9 out of 10 bar owners are going to laugh at you when you give them a contract. Business nowadays is done on a handshake deal most of the time, and unfortunately that means flexibility.
There are owners out there who will ask you to take less at the end of the night if you've been playing for Ethan Allan (chairs). But there are also some owners who will kick you extra money if you pack the place beyond their expectations and help them move a lot of booze. It works both ways.
It's part of the business, you're gonna get hosed a few times. (Dues-payin', anyone?) But when you get that extra c-note at the end of a kickass night, it's pretty cool too.
The best way you can help yourself in the situation is to:
1. REMAIN PROFESSIONAL at all times. Don't go badmouthing the bar owner if you get hosed, they will find out, and you will lose the room.
2. Don't abuse privileges. Most bars will comp the band soda, water, and draft beer. Don't walk in and demand 3 pitchers per member for the first set. Go easy on the booze, it's profit for the bar that is being given away. Remember, they don't have to give you anything.
3. ADVERTISE. It's both parties' responsibility to get the word out, but it seems to ride more on us than them. So use flyers, social media, word of mouth, whatever you can get to get the word out.
4. Be professional onstage. Don't get drunk and fall offstage or into your equipment. DO NOT plug your band playing at another nearby venue the next week. Instead, plug the band that will be playing your current venue. Bar owners appreciate that. Make up schedules for your band and give them out, but don't plug other competing rooms.
Remember, at the end of the day, as a band, your job is to help the bar make as much money as possible. The more money the bar makes, the more favorable the bar owner will be towards kicking in some extra cash or bookings at the end of the night.
There are owners out there who will ask you to take less at the end of the night if you've been playing for Ethan Allan (chairs). But there are also some owners who will kick you extra money if you pack the place beyond their expectations and help them move a lot of booze. It works both ways.
It's part of the business, you're gonna get hosed a few times. (Dues-payin', anyone?) But when you get that extra c-note at the end of a kickass night, it's pretty cool too.
The best way you can help yourself in the situation is to:
1. REMAIN PROFESSIONAL at all times. Don't go badmouthing the bar owner if you get hosed, they will find out, and you will lose the room.
2. Don't abuse privileges. Most bars will comp the band soda, water, and draft beer. Don't walk in and demand 3 pitchers per member for the first set. Go easy on the booze, it's profit for the bar that is being given away. Remember, they don't have to give you anything.
3. ADVERTISE. It's both parties' responsibility to get the word out, but it seems to ride more on us than them. So use flyers, social media, word of mouth, whatever you can get to get the word out.
4. Be professional onstage. Don't get drunk and fall offstage or into your equipment. DO NOT plug your band playing at another nearby venue the next week. Instead, plug the band that will be playing your current venue. Bar owners appreciate that. Make up schedules for your band and give them out, but don't plug other competing rooms.
Remember, at the end of the day, as a band, your job is to help the bar make as much money as possible. The more money the bar makes, the more favorable the bar owner will be towards kicking in some extra cash or bookings at the end of the night.
Dood...
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bassist_25
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My father was a member of the union. For the most part, it's pointless for the following reasons:
- For the most part, club musicians are independent contractors, and such, would not be employees as defined by the NLRA.
- The musician's union is not the NLRB-certified bargaining representative of any club bands that I know of. Therefore, clubs are not under any obligation to bargain in good faith.
- Bands playing Top 40 covers, bands playing blues, bands playing original metal, and bands playing jazz all have different interests and can command different market prices within the "scene." Therefore, they would all have to be in different bargaining units and have different CBAs. Having a Top 40 cover band and an original metal band under the provisions of the same CBA would be like having white collar professionals and custodial staff in the same bargaining unit.
- Don't quote me, but I believe there's some language buried in the NLRA that stipulates employees of a night club are exempt from its provisions.
Musicians playing in symphonies and such can greatly benefit from being in the musicians union because they're employees who answer to 2(11) supervisors, and their union is an NLRB-certified union. Therefore, their employers are under an obligation to bargain in good faith.
With that said, IME, there are some precautions you can take to prevent from being hosed.
- Talk to other musicians. Word travels fast here in our little area about who are the reputable club owners. I don't know if karma exists as this giant metaphysical eqiulibrium mechanism in the sky that rights wrongs, but I've learned that people generally reap what they sow. We're seeing a few club owners struggling now to get bands because the piper has come to collect on all of the bad deals they've done in the past.
- Avoid door deals or complicated deals when at all possible. With that said, there are some club owners I'd completely trust on a door deal, but I've always been cautious with them when it comes to dealing with someone we don't have a prior relationship with. By complicated deals, I mean those deals that go: "You take the first $100 off the door, I take the second $100. After that, we split the next $300. After that, you get 5% of drink sales, etc." If you need an MBA in finance to figure out the deal, it's too complicated and is a recipe to getting screwed.
- Agency representation is probably the biggest leverage. A reputable agency is simply not going to let a venue or promoter screw one of its bands, especially if the agency's booking some of its high-draw acts at the same venue or with the same promoter. Of course, you have to be careful that the agency isn't screwing you.
- For the most part, club musicians are independent contractors, and such, would not be employees as defined by the NLRA.
- The musician's union is not the NLRB-certified bargaining representative of any club bands that I know of. Therefore, clubs are not under any obligation to bargain in good faith.
- Bands playing Top 40 covers, bands playing blues, bands playing original metal, and bands playing jazz all have different interests and can command different market prices within the "scene." Therefore, they would all have to be in different bargaining units and have different CBAs. Having a Top 40 cover band and an original metal band under the provisions of the same CBA would be like having white collar professionals and custodial staff in the same bargaining unit.
- Don't quote me, but I believe there's some language buried in the NLRA that stipulates employees of a night club are exempt from its provisions.
Musicians playing in symphonies and such can greatly benefit from being in the musicians union because they're employees who answer to 2(11) supervisors, and their union is an NLRB-certified union. Therefore, their employers are under an obligation to bargain in good faith.
With that said, IME, there are some precautions you can take to prevent from being hosed.
- Talk to other musicians. Word travels fast here in our little area about who are the reputable club owners. I don't know if karma exists as this giant metaphysical eqiulibrium mechanism in the sky that rights wrongs, but I've learned that people generally reap what they sow. We're seeing a few club owners struggling now to get bands because the piper has come to collect on all of the bad deals they've done in the past.
- Avoid door deals or complicated deals when at all possible. With that said, there are some club owners I'd completely trust on a door deal, but I've always been cautious with them when it comes to dealing with someone we don't have a prior relationship with. By complicated deals, I mean those deals that go: "You take the first $100 off the door, I take the second $100. After that, we split the next $300. After that, you get 5% of drink sales, etc." If you need an MBA in finance to figure out the deal, it's too complicated and is a recipe to getting screwed.
- Agency representation is probably the biggest leverage. A reputable agency is simply not going to let a venue or promoter screw one of its bands, especially if the agency's booking some of its high-draw acts at the same venue or with the same promoter. Of course, you have to be careful that the agency isn't screwing you.
"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
ahh ok, i didn't realize it was something so official. thought it was like a local thing that didn't happen anymore.
lots of good points so far. it is really cool to have extra cash thrown your way at the end of the night. a few months ago - when i was with punk fiction, we made more in tips playin an extra set than we got paid for the whole gig.
i agree that the bar and the band should both equally be promoting the gig.
- kayla.
`( f e n d e r)`
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floodcitybrass
- Platinum Member
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- Joined: Thursday Jan 30, 2003
Re: Getting Paid
I am in the union and I have very mixed opinions about it. You can find my posting about the AFM (local 41 Johnstown is mine).kayla wrote: one guy mentioned there used to be something like a musicians union.
what i gathered from it was that the bands would have a written agreement with the bar/club.
i was wondering if anyone uses written agreements anymore? or how you prevent getting stiffed by a bar owner? or do you just take their word on the pay?
- kayla.
http://rockpage.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.ph ... m&start=75
If you want to know about the union, I can tell you all about it and its history around here.
As far as written agreements, we use them in cases where we need to. If I know the client and we have played there before, a phone call and a handshake is good enough.
I typically always use a contract for first time customers. It is not a negative thing. It protects both the band and the client by listing out the expectations up front.
Our contracts spell out basic things such as:
-start time and end time (we are reasonably flexible with this as events often start later than expected)
-financials- price, when they can pay, who to make a check out to, our tax id number
-amount of space needed
-parking needs
-power needs
-weddings have a very detailed planning section
-what time can we need to get in and set up
I think it is best. Why have surprises? How many of you have showed up to a gig and there is not enough room? only one circuit 80 feet away shared with a coffee burner? or the door is locked because they were expecting you to show up
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soundman814
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StumbleFingers
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- Location: Altoona
Since most of us are playing for a pretty small sum of money, contracts turn into a game of chicken. If the club short changes you they're figuring that it's not worth the time, money, and effort for you to do anything about it.
The best way to make sure you get paid is to network with other musicians and find out which clubs have a good reputation. Some of them will pay you the full amount even if you're playing for an empty room.
Do some scouting on your own. How do bands like yours draw at the club? Are good bands playing for empty seats there?
Even being in an established band with a strong following doesn't ensure that you'll get paid the full amount. You can get shorted even when you played fro a packed house. That turns into a game of chicken too and you have to stand your ground sometimes... You want us back? You'd better pay up. But even if you have to settle for less, you're probably bargaining down from a larger starting amount than a less popular band is.
The best way to make sure you get paid is to network with other musicians and find out which clubs have a good reputation. Some of them will pay you the full amount even if you're playing for an empty room.
Do some scouting on your own. How do bands like yours draw at the club? Are good bands playing for empty seats there?
Even being in an established band with a strong following doesn't ensure that you'll get paid the full amount. You can get shorted even when you played fro a packed house. That turns into a game of chicken too and you have to stand your ground sometimes... You want us back? You'd better pay up. But even if you have to settle for less, you're probably bargaining down from a larger starting amount than a less popular band is.
# 1 if you're in it for the money Quit now. ( I know you aren't Kayla )
We wing it without contracts. I go on the screw me once we won't be back theory. I have never really been screwed. I have accepted ( and twice offered ) to take less because of a slow night. We are there to make the bar money and make a few bucks ourselves, if its a slow night I don't expect the bar owner to pull money out of his pocket to pay us. Its a two way street that needs some give and take on both ends. Now If we were to have a packed night and got shorted then I would be pissed.
We wing it without contracts. I go on the screw me once we won't be back theory. I have never really been screwed. I have accepted ( and twice offered ) to take less because of a slow night. We are there to make the bar money and make a few bucks ourselves, if its a slow night I don't expect the bar owner to pull money out of his pocket to pay us. Its a two way street that needs some give and take on both ends. Now If we were to have a packed night and got shorted then I would be pissed.
Don't bitch to me about the economy while you're still buying Chinese products.
I agree with tonefight, and I'll add a little to it. I've been asked to take less a few times. Once was due to some really bad weather, and I was ok with taking less for something like that. When a venue owner asks "if we have a slow night, will you take less than our agreed amount", I usually respond with "well, if you have a really great night, are you going to give us more than our agreed amount??". I've never had a venue owner say "sure", the answer has always been "no". At that point, I tell them "then my answer is no". Like tonefight said, it's a 2 way street.
Pour me another one, cause I'll never find the silver lining in this cloud.
Re: Getting Paid
I can't offer much help from the perspective of a musician, but here's what I've learned from doing business with other people, working with musicians and promoters from the perspective of providing sound.kayla wrote:I was talkin' with some musicians the other night and the topic of bar owners stiffing bands came up. i was asking about how to prevent it and what not and one guy mentioned there used to be something like a musicians union. i don't know if that's the correct terminology or not.
what i gathered from it was that the bands would have a written agreement with the bar/club. and if they refused to pay then they were presented with the agreement that was formed prior to the gig.
i was wondering if anyone uses written agreements anymore? or how you prevent getting stiffed by a bar owner? or do you just take their word on the pay?
- kayla.
First, a written agreement is a great idea, but it will really only keep honest people honest. An no one is going to take someone to court over a couple hundred bucks. It's most valuable for simply setting expectations because people's memories are selective.
Second, in the sound and lighting production world typical terms are 50% up front and 50% before the truck gets unloaded. I've found that doesn't always fly around here - but it's very common in big cities with strong markets for music entertainment. The nice thing about terms like this is it gives the promoter, bar owner, or whoever incentive to sign your contract "or agreement" so that you don't just take the money and run.
I realize that many times for musicians the terms of payment vary. Sometimes it's a flat rate, sometimes you play for the door, a percentage of the door or some combination. That said, you should have some idea of what the gig *should* pay on an average night. If you can at least get the person to hire you to agree to 50% before you play, and settle the rest after the gig - you won't get totally stiffed.
I think that's a fair way of doing it. However, the main problem is, if the bar owner considers you a PITA to deal with, they may just opt to hire someone who will work for peanuts and not complain.
However, there is more to providing a service than just doing it the cheapest. It takes a concerted effort of all musicians and bands to set "best practices" and not play the lowest bidder wins game. You need to be care to avoid "price fixing" and collusion but I think best practices and standards are the kind of things a union is useful for. The only way a union truly works though is if everyone is in it, and all the musicians refuse to play a venue that doesn't work with the union.
I think the value proposition a musicians union creates is low for bar owners though. Unions for other kinds of workers like electricians, plumbers, and other skilled trades help to reduce liability for the purchaser of the services. The union guarantees that their members are well trained, and you won't have a house that catches fire or floods. In return you pay a higher rate for the labor and have some piece of mind.
Music entertainment doesn't have those liabilities - the worst that can happen by hiring a new band is they suck and get kicked off the stage. OTOH, that does present some risk to the reputation of the bar as a place for good entertainment. However, the current state of the market around here just doesn't justify the benefits of a union.
I'm not saying it's right, or good. But it is what it is. Maybe that will change someday.
"Turn it down!"
"What?"
"What?"
We've never once been offered more than the agreed upon amount for having a great night. We have been asked to take less on a slow night, which we usually will.
One time a bar we usually pack asked us to take less than our flat rate, so we took the opportunity to change our agreement, to a higher risk/reward type deal. We lost some money that night, and made more than we ever have the next time we were there.
I guess what I'm saying is nobody ever jumps at the chance to pay you more money, but if you know what your band can bring to the table, there could be more money to be made there.
One time a bar we usually pack asked us to take less than our flat rate, so we took the opportunity to change our agreement, to a higher risk/reward type deal. We lost some money that night, and made more than we ever have the next time we were there.
I guess what I'm saying is nobody ever jumps at the chance to pay you more money, but if you know what your band can bring to the table, there could be more money to be made there.
Stand back, I like to rock out.
I prefer being paid by the cover charge. If you bring 200 people you get 200 people's cover charges. If you get 7 people well then you get 7. I truly believe this is the only way to do it and be fair. I don't however agree with a partial cut of the cover charge. We brought the people.....we want that money. Also...be smart and have your OWN door man. That way you don't get a "3 bucks for the band, 2 in my pocket" deal. And certainly I must agree MOST owners won't pay you more for packed houses but gladly will give you less for unpacked nights. I do emphasize the word MOST....because I have on rare, rare, rare occasion gotten a couple extra bucks for a great night. It does happen believe it or not. 
I believe this.sstuckey wrote:I prefer being paid by the cover charge. If you bring 200 people you get 200 people's cover charges. If you get 7 people well then you get 7. I truly believe this is the only way to do it and be fair. I don't however agree with a partial cut of the cover charge. We brought the people.....we want that money. Also...be smart and have your OWN door man. That way you don't get a "3 bucks for the band, 2 in my pocket" deal. And certainly I must agree MOST owners won't pay you more for packed houses but gladly will give you less for unpacked nights. I do emphasize the word MOST....because I have on rare, rare, rare occasion gotten a couple extra bucks for a great night. It does happen believe it or not.
If you've been at it for a few years, and can generate enough of a crowd to pay for you being there, you should be paid for that. In plain words, if you're the one taking the risk, you should be the one getting paid when someone walks in the door.
If you're a new band, maybe you'll accept the tried-and-true payment of $200 for an evening's entertainment, but I've always felt you're better off to play for free. "Free" means you're helping someone... "$200" means somebody's getting screwed.
Our project has been around long enough that we draw reasonably well. We've been approached by some local clubs offering a small amount, and we respectfully decline. Club-owners are there to make money, but so are we, and as their allegiances crumble, so do ours. We know our regular crowd pretty well, and as I've been saying alot, the bar scene ain't what she used to be. We simply make more money (and have more fun) at events than we do in bars. You play exclusively in bars at your own peril.
You have to consider all income-streams as well. T-shirts are high-profit. Bumper stickers. CD's make money, but not as much, because you give so many away as promotion. Even tips contribute to the kitty... we played a show at Raystown a few years ago for a set fee, plus free camping at the best site on the lake, on the busiest weekend of the year. Then they lost funding, so we agreed to just do it for the campsite, plus tips. We made far more on tips the following year than we got as a set fee. (Your mileage may vary on that one, as bluegrass and other genres draw differently.)
EVERYBODY eventually gets screwed on pay at some point, it's part of the job description, but you weigh things out as to what benefit you get from playing. We all have places we play for less money, just try not to play on the cheap for too long. It's a guarantee that you'll be seen as an easy target.
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KeithReynolds
- Diamond Member
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- Location: Altoona, PA
songsmith wrote:
I believe this.
If you've been at it for a few years, and can generate enough of a crowd to pay for you being there, you should be paid for that. In plain words, if you're the one taking the risk, you should be the one getting paid when someone walks in the door.
If you're a new band, maybe you'll accept the tried-and-true payment of $200 for an evening's entertainment, but I've always felt you're better off to play for free. "Free" means you're helping someone... "$200" means somebody's getting screwed.
Our project has been around long enough that we draw reasonably well. We've been approached by some local clubs offering a small amount, and we respectfully decline. Club-owners are there to make money, but so are we, and as their allegiances crumble, so do ours. We know our regular crowd pretty well, and as I've been saying alot, the bar scene ain't what she used to be. We simply make more money (and have more fun) at events than we do in bars. You play exclusively in bars at your own peril.
You have to consider all income-streams as well. T-shirts are high-profit. Bumper stickers. CD's make money, but not as much, because you give so many away as promotion. Even tips contribute to the kitty... we played a show at Raystown a few years ago for a set fee, plus free camping at the best site on the lake, on the busiest weekend of the year. Then they lost funding, so we agreed to just do it for the campsite, plus tips. We made far more on tips the following year than we got as a set fee. (Your mileage may vary on that one, as bluegrass and other genres draw differently.)
EVERYBODY eventually gets screwed on pay at some point, it's part of the job description, but you weigh things out as to what benefit you get from playing. We all have places we play for less money, just try not to play on the cheap for too long. It's a guarantee that you'll be seen as an easy target.
Great post, Songsmith. I agree with everything youve said there.