THE POLITICAL ARENA!!! Political Gladiators Inside!!

[Hawk]

I've taken a rest for a while. The word is that Johnny is kicking butt !

[Banned]

What a joke. He knows nothing about foreign countries and he is proud of his lack of knowledge.

What did Obama know about foreign countries before the election? Oh, he knew a lot about Kenya. ha ha

[lonewolf]

I like Herman Cain still....I watched the half-assed debate tonight and he's really the only one that gives clear practical answers and doesn't beat around the bush. The worst is definitely Rick Perry, dude can't answer a question without talking around it. Ron Paul is just weird....just something about him that rubs me the wrong way. Romney just strikes me as a cookie cutter type. Newt isn't terrible, he seems more like a realist like Cain. Forget about the other ones, they are dead in the water.

What a joke. He knows nothing about foreign countries and he is proud of his lack of knowledge. When did ignorance become a Republican virtue ? He's proud to say he'll figure things out AFTER he's president. Hell he could learn more about politics if he took the time to read a newspaper, or just read Rockpage.

Obama has been in office for 3 years and still doesn't understand economics.

Except for the economics of political campaigning.

Had Obama been put through the same media scrutiny that Cain is getting, Hillary Clinton would be president right now.

[songsmith]

Obama has been in office for 3 years and still doesn't understand economics.

Except for the economics of political campaigning.

Had Obama been put through the same media scrutiny that Cain is getting, Hillary Clinton would be president right now.

I tend to agree that Obama isn't an economics genius, but I really have yet to find one of those. I think he knows what would probably help, but the rightwingers have opposed everything but "pizza as a vegetable." Congress has put politics and corporate cronyism over the good of the country, and made a one-term presidency a priority... one that will not happen, as America believes in Congress even less than in Obama.

Obama undeniably got far more scrutiny than Cain is getting. Nobody is asking for Cain's birth certificate. I seem to remember Obama being lambasted for the '57 states" comment, even here on Rockpage. Many attempts were made to tie him to extramarital affairs, but there were none (some guys don't cheat). He was raked over the coals for having a Muslim-sounding name, joe still rides that train. He was accused of being indoctrinated in a madrasa, accused of consorting with Bill Ayers and Jeremiah Wright, of being simultaneously a radical Musilm, and racist extremist.
What if Obama had refused to talk about any of those things the way Cain now refuses to talk about his harassment charges?
If you think Obama hasn't been scrutinized, especially during his campaign, you are hopelessly mistaken.
Even if the media gives him a pass on his stupidity and sexual harassment charges, Hermann Cain will not be President.

[lonewolf]

Obama has been in office for 3 years and still doesn't understand economics.

Except for the economics of political campaigning.

Had Obama been put through the same media scrutiny that Cain is getting, Hillary Clinton would be president right now.

Obama undeniably got far more scrutiny than Cain is getting.

Yes, but the scrutiny didn't come about until after he was nominated. It was a bit late then. He got next to none while he was running against Clinton.

Unless there is a 3rd party campaign from a "republican friendly" candidate, Obama is almost certainly a one-term president. A Ralph Nader backed 3rd party candidate would put the nail in that coffin.

I said it before the last election and I'll say it again:

It doesn't matter who gets elected president in 2012, they are going to inherit a world of shit.

It might sound counter-intuitive, but the worst thing that can happen to America right now is a significant economic upturn that will drive interest rates up. The low interest rate is the only thing buying us enough time to get the budget in line. Once those rates go up, its the fast train to bankrupt city. The only way to change trains is to cut spending by nearly $1 trillion PER YEAR.

The supercommittee is doing exactly what it was designed to do: take the political fallout for 500+ gutless politicians who refuse to give up their little slice of the federal payola pie. Whether they act or not...they will fail to achieve any significant solutions.

I look for a very interesting stock market this week...glad I'm in commodities and not stocks.

[lonewolf]

I'd like to suggest something constructive for a change. I'd like to see if we can identify a lot of the wasteful spending programs that only benefit small percentage of the population, but can cost big bucks. This is not intended to be a list of topics for argument, but rather a list that might be useful to our clueless representatives in Washington. I'm sure you all have at least one pet peeve project.

For example:

I was thinking about the idea of high-speed rail and who it would benefit on a regular basis. The ridership would be in the thousands per day and would only benefit and employ a fraction of 1% of the population. It would mostly benefit wealthy suburbanite commuters and wouldn't even be a drop in the ocean for cutting pollution. Like Amtrak, it would end up as another subsidy for the wealthy and a continuous bloodletting on the budget.

Its one of those things that sounds really great, but when you look at it closely, is not a very good thing to spend billons of dollars of tax money on.

While they are just as offensive, I'd like to keep tax subsidies and tax credits out of this, because they could all be taken care of with a fair-minded tax overhaul.

[Banned]

All of the programs supervised by:

Dept. of Education

Dept. of Commerce

Dept. of Energy

H.U.D.

Close down all of these agencies and return the money to the people.

Just a start.

[songsmith]

Yes, but the scrutiny didn't come about until after he was nominated. It was a bit late then. He got next to none while he was running against Clinton.

Actually, a quick Google showed me that Jeremiah Wright was peaking in news coverage in March '08, well before the Dem Convention. "57 states" was early May '08. Bill Ayers was Feb. '08, and Tony Rezko was January '08.
Scrutiny of Barack Obama came the evening of his speech at the 2004 Democratic Convention. He's since been characterized as a foreign-born Muslim, a Christian black seperatist, an inexperienced community organizer, a socialist academic, a socialist non-academic, and more. Hell, if you want to know what kind of scrutiny President Obama's had and what names he often gets called, look at ucjoe's blog-related stuff, or any NRA publication.
As poorly as Obama's doing in the approval polls, he's still far above G-Dub's numbers, triple Congress' numbers, and the more the rightwing candidates rise and fall, the less momentum any one candidate has a chance of beating him. Basically, the factionalizing caused by the Tea Party, and the pro-wrestling-style nature of their fandom, is making it FAR easier for the candidates to say or do something really stupid. This, in turn, means that the hard right has a new frontrunner roughly every 6 weeks... which isn't how to beat an incumbent.
Moreover, a large undeniable majority supports the end of tax loopholes and breaks for the wealthy, in fact, the Bush Tax Cuts end next year, which polls very high. The voting public is far more interested in everyone paying their share than Fox News would have you think. Poll support for Occupy Wall Street is in the low 70% range, even with the rightwing-media smears and Black Bloc infiltrators. The larger part of Americans do NOT want to gut public education. The majority wants to KEEP Medicare and Social Security. The greater part wants to KEEP environmental regulations. Meanwhile, the Right supports less education, lower wages and benefits, the end of collective bargaining, higher middle and lower class taxation, and most of all, they seek a strong, monied ruling elite class who is responsible to no one.
Assuming that the country is taking a right turn is wishful thinking. Pretending Obama isn't a master politicker with a massive warchest and a pissed-off electorate: priceless.

[Banned]

He's since been characterized as a foreign-born Muslim, a Christian black seperatist, an inexperienced community organizer, a socialist academic, a socialist non-academic, and more.

Couldn't agree more.

[kayla]

He's since been characterized as a foreign-born Muslim, a Christian black seperatist, an inexperienced community organizer, a socialist academic, a socialist non-academic, and more.

Couldn't agree more.

waiiittt. what? you two agree????

[Banned]

He's since been characterized as a foreign-born Muslim, a Christian black seperatist, an inexperienced community organizer, a socialist academic, a socialist non-academic, and more.

Couldn't agree more.

waiiittt. what? you two agree????

We actually had about the same position on the child rape-Penn State controversy. I do agree with the above characterization of Obama.

[lonewolf]

Moreover, a large undeniable majority supports the end of tax loopholes and breaks for the wealthy, in fact, the Bush Tax Cuts end next year, which polls very high. The voting public is far more interested in everyone paying their share than Fox News would have you think.

The Bush Tax Cuts expired last New Year's Eve.

Are you talking about the Obama Tax Cut extension for the rich?

[Banned]

The voting public is far more interested in everyone paying their share than Fox News would have you think.

We agree here also. When approximately 50% of workers do not pay federal income taxes, it is extremely unfair.

[RobTheDrummer]

It is no secret that federal government spending is out of control. They view the American taxpayers as a bottomless piggybank for their wasteful programs and expansion of power. And we the people will not tolerate it any longer.

The massive debt caused by liberal policies will be passed onto our children and grandchildren if we do not stop it. They will be stuck with the tab for the government takeover of health care, industry bailouts and failed stimulus packages. They will be the ones approached with outstretched palms by the Chinese to pay back the billions upon billions we owe them. Each generation of Americans should seek to leave behind a better and more prosperous nation for the next, not saddle them with debt from reckless spending.

Though it might not be politically popular to modernize and eliminate some of our entitlement programs, responsible leaders should be willing to do it all the same. They must be prepared to make tough choices and learn to simply say “no.” This can only happen when our elected officials stop being politicians and start being leaders. Simply put: there is no “Department of Happy” in Washington, D.C.

Nothing should be off the table. Every federal agency, every government program and expenditure must be reviewed and revised with a keen eye and a red pen. Leaders should be willing to shrink budgets by target percentages, and those charged with implementing those changes must be held accountable.

And it works! I have served as an executive of several major corporations. When times were tough and money was tight, I asked our employees to cut back drastically, and explained why it was necessary, and they did. We have all had to make difficult decisions in our own household or at our work place. Serious but responsible belt tightening can save businesses, and it can also save our country with the right leadership.

Herman Cain quote.

[songsmith]

Moreover, a large undeniable majority supports the end of tax loopholes and breaks for the wealthy, in fact, the Bush Tax Cuts end next year, which polls very high. The voting public is far more interested in everyone paying their share than Fox News would have you think.

The Bush Tax Cuts expired last New Year's Eve.

Are you talking about the Obama Tax Cut extension for the rich?

Oh, I see what you did there... making it sound like Obama didn't have to extend the Bush Tax Cuts For The Wealthy in order to keep joe in UC checks. Nice! Horribly misleading, but that's the Conservative Way Of Doing Things.

[songsmith]

It is no secret that federal government spending is out of control. They view the American taxpayers as a bottomless piggybank for their wasteful programs and expansion of power. And we the people will not tolerate it any longer.

The massive debt caused by liberal policies will be passed onto our children and grandchildren if we do not stop it. They will be stuck with the tab for the government takeover of health care, industry bailouts and failed stimulus packages. They will be the ones approached with outstretched palms by the Chinese to pay back the billions upon billions we owe them. Each generation of Americans should seek to leave behind a better and more prosperous nation for the next, not saddle them with debt from reckless spending.

Though it might not be politically popular to modernize and eliminate some of our entitlement programs, responsible leaders should be willing to do it all the same. They must be prepared to make tough choices and learn to simply say “no.” This can only happen when our elected officials stop being politicians and start being leaders. Simply put: there is no “Department of Happy” in Washington, D.C.

Nothing should be off the table. Every federal agency, every government program and expenditure must be reviewed and revised with a keen eye and a red pen. Leaders should be willing to shrink budgets by target percentages, and those charged with implementing those changes must be held accountable.

And it works! I have served as an executive of several major corporations. When times were tough and money was tight, I asked our employees to cut back drastically, and explained why it was necessary, and they did. We have all had to make difficult decisions in our own household or at our work place. Serious but responsible belt tightening can save businesses, and it can also save our country with the right leadership.

Herman Cain quote.

What a load. Except for the part where he made more money while laying off employees. Want Congress to decrease this "terrible" debt by FOUR TRILLION DOLLARS over the next 10 yrs? Tell them to DO NOTHING, just like they have been. Let the Superdupercommittee miss their deadline, and you get $1.2T in savings. The rest comes from revenue increases from letting the Bush Tax Cuts expire. Want them to end the debt problem? Take taxation to Reagan-era levels, and prove conservatives REALLY believe in Reagan's policies.
Ronald Reagan couldn't get elected today, and everybody knows it.

[lonewolf]

Moreover, a large undeniable majority supports the end of tax loopholes and breaks for the wealthy, in fact, the Bush Tax Cuts end next year, which polls very high. The voting public is far more interested in everyone paying their share than Fox News would have you think.

The Bush Tax Cuts expired last New Year's Eve.

Are you talking about the Obama Tax Cut extension for the rich?

Oh, I see what you did there... making it sound like Obama didn't have to extend the Bush Tax Cuts For The Wealthy in order to keep joe in UC checks. Nice! Horribly misleading, but that's the Conservative Way Of Doing Things.

He didn't have to cut that spending deal, nor sign it and all he's done since is bitch about tax cuts for the rich. Just another clueless effing hypocritical politician. Bush has been bar-b-queing in Texas for nearly 3 years now. Isn't it time Obama took responsibility for his actions?

BTW, the extension of the "Tax Cuts For The Rich" were passed with a DEMOCRATIC SUPERMAJORITY running Congress and signed into law by Obama.

Blaming anybody else for the present tax rates is the very definition of the epitome of hypocrisy.

[Hawk]

Cain

Ignorance is a virtue. "I'm here to lead, not read".


Gingrich

"Flip Flops" yet calls himself "consistent" ? Of course he can do that on radio and TV where the people aren't told the whole truth.

Cap-and-Trade:

Flip: "I think if you have mandatory carbon caps combined with a trading system, much like we did with sulfur, and if you have a tax-incentive program for investing in the solutions, that there's a package there that's very, very good. And frankly, it's something I would strongly support." -- February 2, 2007

Flop: "A carbon cap and trade system ... would lead to corruption, political favoritism, and would have a huge impact on the economy." -- April 21, 2008


Climate Change:


Flip: "I think is that the evidence is sufficient that we should move towards the most effective possible steps to reduce carbon-loading of the atmosphere." -- April 10, 2007

Flop: "I actually don't know whether global warming is occurring." -- November 8, 2011


Paul Ryan's Budget Plan:

Flip: "I don't think right-wing social engineering is any more desirable than left-wing social engineering. I don't think imposing radical change from the right or the left is a very good way for a free society to operate. .... [Paul Ryan's Medicare proposal] is too big a jump." -- May 15, 2011

Flop: "I made a mistake. And I called Paul Ryan today, who's a very close personal friend and I said that. The fact is that I have supported what Ryan has tried to do on the budget." -- May 17, 2011

Libya:


Flip: "Exercise a no-fly zone this evening ... Provide help to the rebels to replace [Qaddafi] ... All we have to say is that we think that slaughtering your own citizens is unacceptable and that we’re intervening. And we don't have to send troops. All we have to do is suppress his air force, which we could do in minutes." -- March 7, 2011

Flop: "I would not have intervened. I think there were a lot of other ways to affect Qaddafi ... I would not have used American and European forces." -- March 23, 2011



Criminal Court Trials for Suspected Terrorists:

Flip: "Well, I think if [members of the Bush administration] believe they have enough evidence to convict [Jose Padilla], going through the process of convicting him and holding him, I suspect, may be for the rest of his life without parole would not be -- would hardly be seen as a loss. I think this administration is still wrestling with what are the real ground rules for dealing with people who are clearly outside of normal warfare? They're not wearing a uniform. They're not part of an army. They are openly threatening to kill thousands or even millions of people." -- November 22, 2005

Flop: "Why would you take a Nigerian national who just tried to blow up a plane over Detroit ... Why would you take that person, put them in the American criminal justice system, give them an attorney, read them their Miranda rights?" -- January 4, 2010

Mitt Romney

His picture is in wiki under the title: "Flip Flops"

Ron Paul

I'll give Ron Paul this - He is the ONLY Republican Candidate that knows anything and he doesn't flip flop !
Such bizarre ideas from legalizing all hard drugs, would support racism in any privately owned business open to the public. Wants NO military presence anywhere in the world. ETC.. and his supporters wonder why he doesn't get better media coverage...lol - Because total Libertarianism is too bizarre that's why, making him a candidate who couldn't win.

[lonewolf]

C'mon Bill, haven't you figured it out yet? The only difference between the 2 parties is that the democrans come right out and tell you that they want to spend more, whereas the republicrats say they want smaller government, but end up spending as much. It doesn't matter who wins in 2012, either party will bankrupt us just as soon as interest rates go up.

The only way to prevent a debt brick wall is to cut $1 trillion from the budget over a 1 year period and maintain that level of spending.

They can't even manage to cut $1 trillion over a 10 year period.

After seeing the infamous pepper spray incident, i have added "gasmasks" to my "to do list."

[Gallowglass]

...

Ron Paul

I'll give Ron Paul this - He is the ONLY Republican Candidate that knows anything and he doesn't flip flop !
Such bizarre ideas from legalizing all hard drugs, would support racism in any privately owned business open to the public. Wants NO military presence anywhere in the world. ETC.. and his supporters wonder why he doesn't get better media coverage...lol - Because total Libertarianism is too bizarre that's why, making him a candidate who couldn't win.

Bill,
You've got to give the Ron Paul " would support racism in any privately owned business open to the public" line a rest. Your understanding of the rational behind Dr. Paul's position is either flawed or deliberately misleading. Saying that Dr. Paul "supports racism" is akin to saying that you support killing children in Iraq because you advocate that people pay their taxes. Please think about this a moment before you react. You're honestly driving me insane with that line of bullshit. Btw, if your idea of "total Libertarianism" is Ron Paul, you might want to dig a little deeper...there are some real hardcore cases out there...like me .

[Hawk]

...

Ron Paul

I'll give Ron Paul this - He is the ONLY Republican Candidate that knows anything and he doesn't flip flop !
Such bizarre ideas from legalizing all hard drugs, would support racism in any privately owned business open to the public. Wants NO military presence anywhere in the world. ETC.. and his supporters wonder why he doesn't get better media coverage...lol - Because total Libertarianism is too bizarre that's why, making him a candidate who couldn't win.

Bill,
You've got to give the Ron Paul " would support racism in any privately owned business open to the public" line a rest. Your understanding of the rational behind Dr. Paul's position is either flawed or deliberately misleading. Saying that Dr. Paul "supports racism" is akin to saying that you support killing children in Iraq because you advocate that people pay their taxes. Please think about this a moment before you react. You're honestly driving me insane with that line of bullshit. Btw, if your idea of "total Libertarianism" is Ron Paul, you might want to dig a little deeper...there are some real hardcore cases out there...like me .

I don't mean to insult you, but I do see some principals as flawed. Like the total freedom of a privately owned business trumping race laws. If a pragmatic Libertarian would admit to any flaws and present alternatives then Libertarianism would get much more support.

While one would say Ron Paul does not support racism it is reality to say he supports the RIGHT to discriminate based on race (or for any reason) in the private sector even if a business is open to the public. And I'm guessing Liberterians would like to see everything from schools to public transportation etc. to become privately owned ?

Making all hard drugs legal IMHO is not a good thing.

Removing all military from all countries around the world IMO would leave us in a precarious position.

Are these Libertarian principals ?
If I'm misunderstand something please enlighten me, as I don't want to be wrong about my understanding of such important matters. These principals scare me so unless they are NOT Libertarian principals I will likely bring them up again. If I misunderstand I will accept your vision because you are perhaps the best interpreter for Libertarianism I know.

Thanks

Bill

[Hawk]

Does anyone know what percentage of unemployed lost their jobs from Federal, State, County, Local government down sizing ?

[lonewolf]

Does anyone know what percentage of unemployed lost their jobs from Federal, State, County, Local government down sizing ?

292,000 from "public administration" industry

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/lf/aat32.txt

Bill, since you are a big government fiscal liberal and a social neo-conservative, your views are diametrically opposed to libertarianism.

[Gallowglass]

...

I don't mean to insult you, but I do see some principals as flawed. Like the total freedom of a privately owned business trumping race laws. If a pragmatic Libertarian would admit to any flaws and present alternatives then Libertarianism would get much more support.

Flawed? Sure some Libertarian principles are flawed...are they any more flawed than either the Republican or Democrat platforms that have gotten us where we are? I doubt it. I'm definitely an ideologue, but that doesn't mean I can't be pragmatic as well. The way I see it, there is always more than one way to solve a problem. The rub happens when you have to deal with the consequences of your preferred methodology. Lots of politicians, Republican and Democrat alike are very good at exhorting party rhetoric, but fall very short when it comes to cleaning up their own messes...or they just expect everyone to go along with their authoritarian view of things. From an economic viewpoint, the libertarian fringe is the only one that wants to deal with the current problem from a realistic point of view. Sorry to say it, but it's YOUR party's ideology that has caused this economic problem (along with their co-conspirators, the Republicans). You want to talk flawed, take a look around you and see what's flawed. Isn't it time we at least tried a different approach?

While one would say Ron Paul does not support racism it is reality to say he supports the RIGHT to discriminate based on race (or for any reason) in the private sector even if a business is open to the public. And I'm guessing Liberterians would like to see everything from schools to public transportation etc. to become privately owned ?

...and one could say it's reality that you support infanticide if you support paying your taxes. Look man, everyone does NOT want to live in your little world, even if you think it would be utopian. I for one would probably violently rebel if you and your ilk were given free reign. The libertarian view is that one cannot support everything that one does with their freedom, but we're going to give everyone as much freedom as possible without actually physically harming people (unless it's voluntary). That way, we can have as much of our own little worlds as possible. Support what you WANT to support. Myself, and lots of libertarians are NOT alright with discrimination, but I'm not going to infringe on your private property freedoms because of that. I'm not going to support your discriminatory business if you open one, either. I'm DEFINITELY not alright with the government discriminating against private property owners. What makes them any better?[/quote]

Making all hard drugs legal IMHO is not a good thing.

Why, because the War on Drugs has been such a resounding success? Wake up man, it's a sham. It's a huge expenditure, it's been completely ineffectual, it has made billionaires out of criminal enterprises, and it has resulted in the complete militarization of our police forces. Awesome, let's cling to that...maybe we need to try something different.

Removing all military from all countries around the world IMO would leave us in a precarious position.

And what gives us the right to occupy these countries like we do? What about their sovereignty? How would YOU feel if there were foreign troops on our soil? Ever hear of blowback? It isn't cost effective in the long run either. Maybe we just can't afford to be the world police anymore. Maybe we shouldn't have thought we were in the first place.

Are these Libertarian principals ?
If I'm misunderstand something please enlighten me, as I don't want to be wrong about my understanding of such important matters. These principals scare me so unless they are NOT Libertarian principals I will likely bring them up again. If I misunderstand I will accept your vision because you are perhaps the best interpreter for Libertarianism I know.

Thanks

Bill

For the most part, you have cited what most folks would agree are general libertarian principles (although generalizing about libertarians is as dangerous as it generalizing about any group of people). You understand what the principles are, but I don't think you understand the spirit. I agree that some of the ideas are scary, but they are a lot less scary to me than where we find ourselves right now. Thanks, J.J.F.

[Banned]

Does anyone know what percentage of unemployed lost their jobs from Federal, State, County, Local government down sizing ?

Does it matter? Whether employed or not, they still receive our tax dollars.