florida drug test for welfare recipiants

[Hawk]

I thought in a pure socialistic society, everyone worked for the government. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Banned]

You said methane was not vented. You did not say or describe if there were regulations or you wanted new regulations.

The government has regulations (laws) against drug use. Do Americans die from drug use? Yes of course. We need more laws Bill, Americans are dying from drugs, why aren't you posting about the need for more regulations into our daily lives?

Do you think government can regulate a perfect world? A perfect person? The perfect mine? I think you do.

One article is sourced from the EPA, I do not believe all government publications. I learned not to trust the government.

The other has a conclusion that contains: Water-quality variables related to mining were more strongly correlated to NMS axis-1 scores, metrics, and MMIs than were sedimentation and riparian habitat scores. Generally, the correlations between the genus-level MMI and water-quality variables were stronger than the correlations between the family-level MMI and those variables.

If you can explain what that means you win a cigar.

The third is from an academic who probably gets grants from the EPA to produce such findings. Again government propaganda.

The last source is a tree hugger source. I wonder what side they would take?

Bill, all mining, farming, building, manufacturing....leaves some pollution. We can shut them all down with endless government regulations. Lets do that, shut down all mining, manufacturing, farming, construction.....

I say we start regulating piano tuning too. Shut down that industry.

[lonewolf]

The regulations are made based on needs, not because they know more. People die. Why did they die. Because methane wasn't vented. Well, let's make a regulation that they need to properly vent methane.

And who decides every possible scenario on how to properly vent methane and write it into a regulation so that every mining company in the US can take the regulation and apply it to their unique methane problems?

[Hawk]

Do you really think mining would be safer or as safe as it is now with no government regulations ?

[lonewolf]

Do you really think mining would be safer or as safe as it is now with no government regulations ?

I asked my question first.

[Hawk]

The regulations are made based on needs, not because they know more. People die. Why did they die. Because methane wasn't vented. Well, let's make a regulation that they need to properly vent methane.

And who decides every possible scenario on how to properly vent methane and write it into a regulation so that every mining company in the US can take the regulation and apply it to their unique methane problems?

1. Who? Our representatives and our EPA based on studies from qualified sources.

2. It's already been done.

[Hawk]

Bill, all mining, farming, building, manufacturing....leaves some pollution. We can shut them all down with endless government regulations. Lets do that, shut down all mining, manufacturing, farming, construction.....

There it is in all of it's sarcasm. Joe, you don't give a damn about the next generation and the poison this generation leaves behind for them to live / die with. That is the difference between us. I care about the water and the people who drink it and I care about the people who eat the fish. That is my principal. For some reason you don't get it or choose not to get it because you principal is to only care about the owner. Let the owner piss in the stream, I hope you don't live down stream from him.

Spew mercury into the stream, the hell with anyone who wants to eat the fish...Good principals Joe. I just don't get why you are so proud of it?

[lonewolf]

The regulations are made based on needs, not because they know more. People die. Why did they die. Because methane wasn't vented. Well, let's make a regulation that they need to properly vent methane.

And who decides every possible scenario on how to properly vent methane and write it into a regulation so that every mining company in the US can take the regulation and apply it to their unique methane problems?

1. Who? Our representatives and our EPA based on studies from qualified sources.

2. It's already been done.

Nice try, but incorrect. It falls under the auspices of the Mine Safety and Health Administration in the Department of Labor. Don't worry Bill, the federal government is so big, most of our representatives probably don't know there is Mine Safety and Health Administration either.

These people don't even read the bills they vote on and you expect them to draft a regulation on a complex engineering process that is different almost every time it is needed? Sit down with a mining engineer and they will tell you that each situation is unique and doesn't conform to a pre-conceived notion of how things should be done. Its like pushing a string.

The "when" I was talking about was when to vent the methane (along with how).

[Hawk]

Since 1982, coal-mining operations in the U.S. have been able to dump rubble in pristine streams without undergoing the typical environmental review and public comment period required under the Clean Water Act. This morning, the Army Corps of Engineers announced plans to suspend this streamlined nationwide permit program, called NWP 21, which affects a large fraction of permits issued in Appalachia.

“By getting rid of nationwide permits, it will hopefully slow the process down and make it more open,” says Tierra Curry, a biologist at the Center for Biological Diversity in Portland, Ore. Although she is pleased with the regulations, she says they don’t go far enough. Earlier this spring, after the administration said it had plans to scrutinize individual permits more closely, it proceeded to approve 42 of 48 new mountaintop removal permits. “That’s the most permits than have been approved in years,” she observes.

Teri Blanton of Kentuckians for the Commonwealth also welcomed the proposal, but worried that it would grandfather in some 100 pending permits in Kentucky. “Thirteen miles of stream are slated to be buried on the north fork of the Kentucky river,” she says. “I really hope they do individual permits and take the cumulative impact into account.”

The Corps will issue a final decision in the fall, following a public comment period.

[Hawk]

And who decides every possible scenario on how to properly vent methane and write it into a regulation so that every mining company in the US can take the regulation and apply it to their unique methane problems?

1. Who? Our representatives and our EPA based on studies from qualified sources.

2. It's already been done.

Nice try, but incorrect. It falls under the auspices of the Mine Safety and Health Administration in the Department of Labor. Don't worry Bill, the federal government is so big, most of our representatives probably don't know there is Mine Safety and Health Administration either.

These people don't even read the bills they vote on and you expect them to draft a regulation on a complex engineering process that is different almost every time it is needed? Sit down with a mining engineer and they will tell you that each situation is unique and doesn't conform to a pre-conceived notion of how things should be done. Its like pushing a string.

The "when" I was talking about was when to vent the methane (along with how).

So you knew the answer and figured I'd give the wrong answer. Nice tactic, but it doesn't mean that good regulations can't be done.

[lonewolf]

Do you really think mining would be safer or as safe as it is now with no government regulations ?

I seriously doubt that government regulations make much difference in modern mining. From what I've heard, its cheaper to just ignore them and pay the fines anyway.

If they are wrong (you know, like Obamanomics), it could make things worse.

[lonewolf]

So you knew the answer and figured I'd give the wrong answer. Nice tactic, but it doesn't mean that good regulations can't be done.

No Bill, you just made it a little easier for me, that's all.



I used to write engineering specifications which is exactly what a mining regulation would need to look like. It requires in-depth knowledge of the subject and very clear, concise writing.

Please don't expect me to believe that people like Prince William de Flounder-Schuster or anybody on their staff are qualified.

[Hawk]

So you think this is a better way ?

"Since 1982, coal-mining operations in the U.S. have been able to dump rubble in pristine streams without undergoing the typical environmental review and public comment period required under the Clean Water Act."

[Hawk]

Do you really think mining would be safer or as safe as it is now with no government regulations ?

I seriously doubt that government regulations make much difference in modern mining. .

I doubt the mine workers would agree with you. They have a first hand account of what goes on.

[Banned]

Bill, all mining, farming, building, manufacturing....leaves some pollution. We can shut them all down with endless government regulations. Lets do that, shut down all mining, manufacturing, farming, construction.....

There it is in all of it's sarcasm. Joe, you don't give a damn about the next generation and the poison this generation leaves behind for them to live / die with. That is the difference between us. I care about the water and the people who drink it and I care about the people who eat the fish. That is my principal. For some reason you don't get it or choose not to get it because you principal is to only care about the owner. Let the owner piss in the stream, I hope you don't live down stream from him.

Spew mercury into the stream, the hell with anyone who wants to eat the fish...Good principals Joe. I just don't get why you are so proud of it?

Not every regulation is a good one, not every regulation is needed. Or do you think that. Just because some EPA guy recommends a new regulation, we just HAVE to vote for it? That is what the EPA does, push constantly for new regulations. Just because a Senator does not vote on a regulation, you jump to the conclusion he is for NO regulations.

You cannot prove that voting for all your regulations will stop all the pollution. I know you care, you libs are real big on caring. But prove that all your regulations give us a perfect, pollution free world.

Just because you care does not mean a regulation is going to be effective or needed.

At least my principles don't lead to genocide and 50 million people dying during WWII.

[lonewolf]

So you think this is a better way ?

"Since 1982, coal-mining operations in the U.S. have been able to dump rubble in pristine streams without undergoing the typical environmental review and public comment period required under the Clean Water Act."

This is a completely separate subject from mining regulation.

[Hawk]

So you think this is a better way ?

"Since 1982, coal-mining operations in the U.S. have been able to dump rubble in pristine streams without undergoing the typical environmental review and public comment period required under the Clean Water Act."

This is a completely separate subject from mining regulation.

Yes it is different than safety regulations. Joe and I were discussing pollution.

[Hawk]

Bill, all mining, farming, building, manufacturing....leaves some pollution. We can shut them all down with endless government regulations. Lets do that, shut down all mining, manufacturing, farming, construction.....

There it is in all of it's sarcasm. Joe, you don't give a damn about the next generation and the poison this generation leaves behind for them to live / die with. That is the difference between us. I care about the water and the people who drink it and I care about the people who eat the fish. That is my principal. For some reason you don't get it or choose not to get it because you principal is to only care about the owner. Let the owner piss in the stream, I hope you don't live down stream from him.

Spew mercury into the stream, the hell with anyone who wants to eat the fish...Good principals Joe. I just don't get why you are so proud of it?

Not every regulation is a good one, not every regulation is needed. Or do you think that. Just because some EPA guy recommends a new regulation, we just HAVE to vote for it? That is what the EPA does, push constantly for new regulations. Just because a Senator does not vote on a regulation, you jump to the conclusion he is for NO regulations.

You cannot prove that voting for all your regulations will stop all the pollution. I know you care, you libs are real big on caring. But prove that all your regulations give us a perfect, pollution free world.

Just because you care does not mean a regulation is going to be effective or needed.

At least my principles don't lead to genocide and 50 million people dying during WWII.

Obvoiusly there is still too much pollution. But you like that don't you...

[Hawk]

At least my principles don't lead to genocide and 50 million people dying during WWII.

Neither do mine. What's your point ?

[Banned]

There it is in all of it's sarcasm. Joe, you don't give a damn about the next generation and the poison this generation leaves behind for them to live / die with. That is the difference between us. I care about the water and the people who drink it and I care about the people who eat the fish. That is my principal. For some reason you don't get it or choose not to get it because you principal is to only care about the owner. Let the owner piss in the stream, I hope you don't live down stream from him.

Spew mercury into the stream, the hell with anyone who wants to eat the fish...Good principals Joe. I just don't get why you are so proud of it?

Not every regulation is a good one, not every regulation is needed. Or do you think that. Just because some EPA guy recommends a new regulation, we just HAVE to vote for it? That is what the EPA does, push constantly for new regulations. Just because a Senator does not vote on a regulation, you jump to the conclusion he is for NO regulations.

You cannot prove that voting for all your regulations will stop all the pollution. I know you care, you libs are real big on caring. But prove that all your regulations give us a perfect, pollution free world.

Just because you care does not mean a regulation is going to be effective or needed.

At least my principles don't lead to genocide and 50 million people dying during WWII.

Obvoiusly there is still too much pollution. But you like that don't you...

I will bet I like pollution as much as you like genocide and death camps.

[Hawk]

Not every regulation is a good one, not every regulation is needed. Or do you think that. Just because some EPA guy recommends a new regulation, we just HAVE to vote for it? That is what the EPA does, push constantly for new regulations. Just because a Senator does not vote on a regulation, you jump to the conclusion he is for NO regulations.

You cannot prove that voting for all your regulations will stop all the pollution. I know you care, you libs are real big on caring. But prove that all your regulations give us a perfect, pollution free world.

Just because you care does not mean a regulation is going to be effective or needed.

At least my principles don't lead to genocide and 50 million people dying during WWII.

Obvoiusly there is still too much pollution. But you like that don't you...

I will bet I like pollution as much as you like genocide and death camps.

Where the hell are you coming up with this shit about genocide and death camps. Maybe it's time for you to put that syringe away.

[Banned]

You try to hang drug addiction, pollution, racism.... on my principles. I am just giving you back exactly what you do to libertarians. Extreme socialists caused genocide, death camps, slavery...in the middle of last century.

I thought you would not like it. Now you know how it feels on this side.

I still think you will not stop distorting libertarian principles. I hope you prove that wrong.

[Hawk]

Not every regulation is a good one, not every regulation is needed. Or do you think that. Just because some EPA guy recommends a new regulation, we just HAVE to vote for it? That is what the EPA does, push constantly for new regulations. Just because a Senator does not vote on a regulation, you jump to the conclusion he is for NO regulations.

You cannot prove that voting for all your regulations will stop all the pollution. I know you care, you libs are real big on caring. But prove that all your regulations give us a perfect, pollution free world.

Just because you care does not mean a regulation is going to be effective or needed.

At least my principles don't lead to genocide and 50 million people dying during WWII.

Obvoiusly there is still too much pollution. But you like that don't you...

I will bet I like pollution as much as you like genocide and death camps.

You don't like discrimination but you don't like government regulations against it.
You don't like pollution but you don't like government regulations to prevent it.
You don't like miners dieing needlessly but you don't like government regulations that protect them.
You don't want more people addicted to drugs but you do want to make it easier and cheaper for them to get drugs.

Or would you say we do need some government regulations ? I need a little clarification from you.

[Hawk]

You try to hang drug addiction, pollution, racism.... on my principles. I am just giving you back exactly what you do to libertarians. Extreme socialists caused genocide, death camps, slavery...in the middle of last century.

I thought you would not like it. Now you know how it feels on this side.

I still think you will not stop distorting libertarian principles. I hope you prove that wrong.

I "hung" nothing on you.

EDIT:
I'm only trying to point out a perceived FLAW in the "owner of a business Open To The Public" gets to do as he pleases philosophy (relative to minority race discrimination). That's All, nothing more than that. I do not see it as a flaw in you or anyone else ! It's just a philosophical flaw (in my opinion) and NOTHING MORE than that.


Pollution ? Are you for government restrictions on mercury or not ? You cannot deny that fish are already carrying some level of mercury. Would you like to reduce mercury and other pollutants ?

[Banned]

Bill, I want a perfect world. Government regulations are not the way to get there.

Why do people do drugs? Why do they get addicted to drugs? We have 1000's of laws against drugs at every level of government.

Could it be that the laws and regulations do not work?

I think you have greater faith in a government regulation than anything else. I think our (and most) government is terribly flawed and corrupt.

Total obedience to a government and its laws led to totalitarianism, like Nazi Germany, which started out as socialism. If there were a few more Germans who had more libertarian principles, instead of government zombies like you, the death camps and WWII might not have happened.

Are the answers to life found in government and its regulations? Learn to live your life like you want to, not how your government lets you.

I am never going to say that regulations are going to be the answer to everything. Government can be and has proved to be wrong, see Nazi Germany.