sound

[Hawk]

Sarcasm (although I did not attack Jones - as I know him to be a stand up guy) often goes over my head. Just a weakness I guess.

[JackANSI]

Others just kind of go with what they think they know and can't/don't adjust, others
(And one in particular that I know very well who runs house at a well-known venue,
I can't say is exactly MUSICAL, and who's skills seem to have become...let's say...
lackadaisical) just kind of do...not too much...but the points below really apply to that
person, and, I'm sure to others...

I have tons of theories about live music that I've observed to be mostly true. One of them is 'Sour Ear'. Sometimes when it doesn't sound right and the sound engineer doesn't listen, its because he's actually suffering from hearing loss and he doesn't know/want to admit it (his ear has gone 'sour'). If the sound engineer is behind the board the whole night, thats bad for the sound and for his ears. Especially if the engineer has a thing for giant bass bins. It might actually sound good to his soured ears.

A good sound guy should almost hate to be behind the board, imho.

I know there are some great sound guys who do a killer job. Several come to
mind (Best stage mix I've ever heard was coupl'a Fridays ago at 30 Something.
Zilly's awesome), but, and we all know some of these, I've also known a good
few many guys who, when their band splits up, end up with all this...stuff...and
decide their going to make more cash running sound. They do...but not well.

I know everyone has a favorite sound engineers, not going to say anyone is wrong but... Zilly is just the best damn ear I've ever heard. If there was an 'iron chef' for sound engineers, this guy would be the one to beat. He does everything right. 90% of "DJs" and other sound engineers could learn a crap load from this guy.

I agree that very often the stage volume is just ridiculously loud, whether because
of the band's gear volume, or it's a matter of the way the room is built (Saturday night,
amp on just below "1" (I run my head at lalf power (25w), through a 1x12), us playing
no louder than normal... and we have a low backline level) but it's like a little alcove,
and, at least to me, it seemed LOUD. May just be me. I'd defer to Rob for confirmation.
I tend to get a really bad headache around midway through the 2nd set nowadays.

My head was pounding after saturday night. I know exactly what did it though. Wasn't your stuff. I have a theory about why that room sounded really loud.

I'm sure if you scoop the mids and.... (not my actual theory though)

If there is a big professional sized PA system, amps shouldn't be facing toward the crowd. It should be facing the players. Thats where most people f'up. Sometimes guitarists think that their ears are on their knees and don't kick their cab back enough.

Bassists can get away with it. The further you get from the human ear's butter zone, the less efficient your brain is at getting 'directional' information from the sound.

Which brings up an interesting point about sound and why the drummer sitting in the back of the stage, usually near a wall or corner is always thinking the bass is too loud He just doesn't know any better from where he's sitting.

It SHOULD be that you have someone there you trust. There are times when
you do have to question it though...but that's another story... Oh...and bassist,
it's just a joke...

I was a little... disappointed... saturday...

I had to stop reading the OP... I was taking offence there for awhile... Then I read he's a drummer and it all made sense.

[MeYatch]

Ease up man, I didn't write it, just thought it was funny and maybe someone else would as well. As for playing "way too fucking loud on stage" How bout we use no amps and electronic drums with in ears...... WE HAVE NO FUCK STAGE SOUND AT ALL SO BLOW ME!

sorry, it seems my sarcasm detector has been on the fritz more often than not lately. I still don't really think its funny, and whoever wrote it almost certainly does play too fucking loud.

[HurricaneBob]

This is one of those sit back, read, laugh at the comments threads all started by a drummer. Jones, the world is good. HAHA!

[VENTGtr]

And thanks for the kind words Dave.

Just saying it the way it is man. Yer good and know your stuff. And, I guess I stand
corrected. Granted...was hard to imagine you sittin' that long and typin' it...but has
all the Calv-hallmarks.

I have a theory about why that room sounded really loud.

I also have to say...there were a few times I was quite pleasantly distracted...
then landed back in reality....Hate reality sometimes....

I'm sure if you scoop the mids and....

NICE!

Sometimes guitarists think that their ears are on their knees and
don't kick their cab back enough.

True. I may build something ('Cause, you know, the PVC add-ons...) to tilt even
more. Just concerned about tippage.

I was a little... disappointed... saturday...

Ya, I'm goin' to have a talkin'-to-with said. Was goin' to the week before, but, well...
had other things goin' on and was in no mood. [/quote]

Then I read he's a drummer and it all made sense.

NICE x 2.

[tom]

Jones,
You have to understand that soundmen are sensitive & can't take a joke!!!

[Jones]

Yeah, I guess that would explain my knee jerk reaction as well. Sorry.

[JackANSI]

Sometimes guitarists think that their ears are on their knees and
don't kick their cab back enough.

True. I may build something ('Cause, you know, the PVC add-ons...) to tilt even
more. Just concerned about tippage.

Actually you're the first guitarist I've played with that actually kicks their cab back at all.. And the 1x12/ 1/2 power thing is.. just weird.


You know, for a guitarist.

[CMOR]

I apologize if I came across as an ass. Jones, I may not know you in person(not good with associating Rockpage with real life), but I think we could get along. I also didn't realize you are a drummer. That many thoughts shouldn't be coming out of a drummer(you know the joke about drummers' bodily fluids and a level stage right?). Kidding!

Hawk, now I understand what you're saying...AGREED. I try to listen to each instrument and band to do what I think is best for the room. A rockabilly band should not sound like a metal band either.

I also agree with the comments about overdoing the subs. I know, Aldo's has way too much junk in that trunk. I'm working on it.

I love learning from other guys. That's why I went to help set up for the Front show. I've known Shawn forever and I knew he could and would show me a lot that I don't know. Of course, now I feel like I'm in the dark ages with the gear I've got to work with.

People keep telling me to lighten up...maybe I should listen.

[tonefight]

I know this all started as a joke but i haven't really pissed any one off in awhile

Actually unless its outside or a really huge club I hate big sound systems when I'm there to hear a band. Some of the best sounds I've heard were from bands running it from stage.

And a most important note to soundmen ( they obviously don't teach this in sound engineering school ) People didn't pay cover to be impressed with how much you can make the bass drum "pound". I know this shows how much money you spent on power amps and subs but the bass drum really shouldn't be louder than the lead vocals. Seriously, I know its hard to believe and noone has wanted to break your little sensitive hearts but it really is true.

[Hawk]

I like to hear the bass drum pound with a good rock band. But then...I'm a drummer.
It does give a sense of balance and even rhythm to the dancers.

[JackANSI]

I know this all started as a joke but i haven't really pissed any one off in awhile

Actually unless its outside or a really huge club I hate big sound systems when I'm there to hear a band. Some of the best sounds I've heard were from bands running it from stage.

And a most important note to soundmen ( they obviously don't teach this in sound engineering school ) People didn't pay cover to be impressed with how much you can make the bass drum "pound". I know this shows how much money you spent on power amps and subs but the bass drum really shouldn't be louder than the lead vocals. Seriously, I know its hard to believe and noone has wanted to break your little sensitive hearts but it really is true.

Couldn't agree more. That's the way it should be done.

I always imagine a sound guy as the princess in 'spaceballs'. You tell them to bring "only what you need to survive"... They show up with "her royal highness' matched luggage".

[tonefight]

I like to hear the bass drum pound with a good rock band. But then...I'm a drummer.
It does give a sense of balance and even rhythm to the dancers.

I know a good kick drum does sound good, but did you ever notice that is the soul focus of alot of sound guys and they think it has to be louder than the vocals. Just a funny thing I noticed.

Good kick drum sound = Good
Well balanced with the drum kit = Good
Loudest thing it FOH = Bad

[Hawk]

I like to hear the bass drum pound with a good rock band. But then...I'm a drummer.
It does give a sense of balance and even rhythm to the dancers.

Good kick drum sound = Good
Well balanced with the drum kit = Good
Loudest thing it FOH = Bad

Agree

[LHSL]

Some people hate lawyers. Some hate cops. I hate soundmen.

I don't really hate anyone except for terrorists. I think this post was juvenile and uncalled for. I have been working with Flood City Brass for the last 6 years as their sound man/technician/engineer or whatever you prefer.

Over that time we have learned a mutual respect that has paid off in that we have fun at every gig and the fans have fun too. The type of attitude expressed here was unprofessional and won't get you very far in the music business around here. I do nothing but work my ass off so the band sounds and looks great. In turn, they work their asses off on stage to make sure the audience has fun.

Posts like yours really disgust me. I'm a regular on a pro sound web forum and never have I ever seen such a distasteful message posted about musicians. Kidding or not, I have to wonder why I even try if that is really how other musicians feel.

The next time you are at a Van Halen, AC/DC, or <insert> concert you should think about all the support that goes into making that show happen. Not just sound, but lighting, rigging, catering, and production support services.

If there was such disrespect in the REAL music industry for the support staff, I could not imagine it would be nearly as successful as it has been over the last 40 or so years.

[FrigoRecording]

There are just so many variables when it comes to mixing live sound - the quality of the instruments, level of musicianship, the room itself, and all the elements in the sound system from the microphones to the speakers. This makes it really tough for a live sound guy. When you're mixing great musicians with good instruments, any halfway decent sound system will do. When you're mixing crappy musicians, nothing else matters - it's going to sound like crap.

I've mixed some live shows where several bands have played, and I have struggled so hard to get some of the bands to sound good, and other bands will come up to play their set, and everything sounds great right away.

[DirtySanchez]

Imagine drummers getting this pissed every time a drummer joke is told.
LOL at people still taking this serious.

[VENTGtr]

I always imagine a sound guy as the princess in 'spaceballs'. You tell them
to bring "only what you need to survive"... They show up with "her royal
highness' matched luggage".

What's great is that I bumped into Nate, whom Paul mentioned, at the grocery
store last night (Where I see everyone, eventually). We were there, in the bread
aisle, talking about just this kind of thing for a while (I mentioned that I'd just seen
his name mentioned, and thought "Is Paul drunk?"), him and Al running for B.D.
at The Hotel, etc. and it came around about lot of bands/sound, etc. bringing in
too much stuff. "He said, you know, we could really get away with less stuff there"
(This was in the context of a couple of different things).

Difference with Nate and Al, is that they know what they're doing, how to control
things, and do so.

LHSL, it's not a matter of disrespect at all. REALLY, as Paul noted, there are
sound guys from whom I have a very high regard. I can even think of a couple
of guys I've seen grow into being great ones after not having the slightest idea
when they first started.

Besides, look into a lot of interviews with Engineers and Producers within the
"industry"...some pretty harsh stuff said about musicians, each other, others in
their field, etc...and not within the framework of jes' kiddin' around.

No doubt, you have your gig because you're good and I'll bet you've put a lot of
time and effort into getting there. But, I've gone to shows at every level and thought
"Lord, that sounds like ashterküven".

'Sides, it's okay just to bust on each other sometimes, eh?

[bassist_25]

(I mentioned that I'd just seen
his name mentioned, and thought "Is Paul drunk?"),

Nope, I would have posted in Sanchez's Drunk Thread if that would have been the case.

[Jones]

Some people hate lawyers. Some hate cops. I hate soundmen.

I don't really hate anyone except for terrorists. I think this post was juvenile and uncalled for. I have been working with Flood City Brass for the last 6 years as their sound man/technician/engineer or whatever you prefer.

Over that time we have learned a mutual respect that has paid off in that we have fun at every gig and the fans have fun too. The type of attitude expressed here was unprofessional and won't get you very far in the music business around here. I do nothing but work my ass off so the band sounds and looks great. In turn, they work their asses off on stage to make sure the audience has fun.

Posts like yours really disgust me. I'm a regular on a pro sound web forum and never have I ever seen such a distasteful message posted about musicians. Kidding or not, I have to wonder why I even try if that is really how other musicians feel.

The next time you are at a Van Halen, AC/DC, or <insert> concert you should think about all the support that goes into making that show happen. Not just sound, but lighting, rigging, catering, and production support services.

If there was such disrespect in the REAL music industry for the support staff, I could not imagine it would be nearly as successful as it has been over the last 40 or so years.

Sorry to offend. Really was simply meant to be funny, that's all. Most good techs with a sense of humor would be ok with that.

[VENTGtr]

Totally appropriate to nothing, we did a multi-band show a bit ago.

No community drums, cab(s), for anything, etc...and 2 drummers
running sound (Twoey from Butcher Shop/StoneBroke & Dodge,
from $9Porno).

They did a great job, especially with all the changes. Was great,
though, because BOTH, at different points said to me something
like "Everything else might sound like hell, but you KNOW the
drums are going to sound good".

Drummers.

[Jsun76]

...stupid Bill

[VENTGtr]

JASONIAN!!!!!

[orangekick]

I apologize if I came across as an ass. Jones, I may not know you in person(not good with associating Rockpage with real life), but I think we could get along. I also didn't realize you are a drummer. That many thoughts shouldn't be coming out of a drummer(you know the joke about drummers' bodily fluids and a level stage right?). Kidding!

Hawk, now I understand what you're saying...AGREED. I try to listen to each instrument and band to do what I think is best for the room. A rockabilly band should not sound like a metal band either.

I also agree with the comments about overdoing the subs. I know, Aldo's has way too much junk in that trunk. I'm working on it.

I love learning from other guys. That's why I went to help set up for the Front show. I've known Shawn forever and I knew he could and would show me a lot that I don't know. Of course, now I feel like I'm in the dark ages with the gear I've got to work with.

People keep telling me to lighten up...maybe I should listen.

CMOR does a great job running sound and I trust him to keep us sounding great every time we make it into town. I do play loud, but I have no issue turning down a bit if it's affecting the overall mix. I am blessed with a loud drummer who also knows his dynamics, so it's usually no problem.

Too many bands don't know what their whole band sounds like and so they tend to sound bad on stage because one person thinks that one thing needs to be louder and the EQ is off and so on and so forth. More people need to step off the stage and hear what the audience is going to hear before they berate the sound person.