sound

[witchhunt]

you couldn't pay me enough money to work with some of these primadonna bands that are around.

Wow!

[bassist_25]

I'd run sound for the art.

[witchhunt]

I'd run sound for the art.

Yeah, yeah.

[lonewolf]

I'd run sound for the art.

But is it art? Or a craft? Discuss.

[CMOR]

I just got around to reading this and now it's my turn to sound off. As a bass player(17 years and counting) who actually listened to the whole band to see how everything fit together and add to it, not distract, and recently started running sound seriously...I couldn't read past the second paragraph.

Maybe the humor was lost on me, maybe I am being too subjective.

Like mentioned earlier, if the band sounds bad to begin with, I can't help with that. We don't have a "Suck Knob" on the board. God, I wish I did.

I look at it this way: if your band sucks, I make it louder. If your band is great, I make it louder. The difference is the latter is easier, especially if the band knows their gear.

I could list some very fine examples in both categories, but that's not my style.

I actually have a funny story from this weekend involving a bands "producer" telling me how to make them sound even though the band already told me they have no idea who this jag-off was. Because of situations like that, I have always had a great deal of respect for sound guys, sorry, sound engineers as long as they're competent.

That's my change.

Steve

[Hawk]

I disagree with all of you who say if a band sucks, you can only make them suck louder. If the stage volume is too high, then no, you can't help much at all. However:

If the band plays with a proper stage volume you should be able to make any band sound better, not just louder. With the technology available at the board today - yes, you can improve their overall sound !

Unless you are using cave man equipment or (like I said) a band that out-does the mains with their amps volumes - a good sound tech can deliver the goods.

I've seen / heard Zilly make a bad band sound good.

edit: spelling error

[bassist4life2004]

I always enjoy checking out your pieces.

I bet you do.

But anyway, I can't say that i've ever had a complaint about sound ENGINEERS that we've hired for shows in the past. Really, we only hired sound for 4D's lounge cuz we had our own PA system. I cant say anything bad about Keith as far as being Blackout's sound guy. He has a natural ear for sound and just makes us sound good every time. Lee Worthy and Chris Knapik are 2 that we've hired in the past, and they made us sound great! I think it takes a lot of skill to do the job that they do. I wouldnt know the first thing about running a mixing board and hooking all that shit up. I try to watch when others do it, but im so big that i block out the light, and the sound guy gets pissed.

[tom]

I disagree with all of you who say if a band sucks, you can only make them suck louder. If the stage volume is too high, then no, you can't help much at all. However:

If the band plays with a proper stage volume you should be able to make any band sound better, not just louder. With the technology available at the board today - yes, you can improve their overall sound !

Unless you are using cave man equipment or (like I said) a band that out-does the mains with their amps volumes - a good sound tech can deliver the goods.

edit: spelling error

no, Hawk, you're wrong! A sound man can not make a singer sing on key, a sound man can not keep the bassist & drummer in the pocket, or keep the band tight. A sound man can not make the guitarist play the right notes... We CAN process what's given to us into something listenable(to the best of our ability) That is what I meant by suck.

The O.P. was obviously trying to be funny, but missed slightly

[lonewolf]

A sound man can not make a singer sing on key

Well, actually...

[tom]

A sound man can not make a singer sing on key

Well, actually...

[bassist_25]

I disagree with all of you who say if a band sucks, you can only make them suck louder. If the stage volume is too high, then no, you can't help much at all. However:

If the band plays with a proper stage volume you should be able to make any band sound better, not just louder. With the technology available at the board today - yes, you can improve their overall sound !

Unless you are using cave man equipment or (like I said) a band that out-does the mains with their amps volumes - a good sound tech can deliver the goods.

I've seen / heard Zilly make a bad band sound good.

edit: spelling error

Actually Hawk, I have to pretty much disagree. First there are all of the reasons that Tom mentioned. Having a big PA can really give a band some balls, but you still need competent players to begin with. I've seen The Hurricanes with two Yamaha speakers on sticks, and I've seen the Hurricanes going through a big PA with full FOH reproduction. They bring it for both scenarios. If you can't bring it with the vocal PA, then you aren't going to magically kick ass with a big PA. I've seen bands that even Zilly couldn't save. He worked his ass off to make them sound as good as he could, God bless him, but he can't hide a band's lack of woodshedding.

Another thing that people seem to fail to realize is that true, high-end pro-audio equipment is designed to be as transparent as possible. It's supposed to be an as accurate representation of the input performance as possible. It's kind of like learning to play guitar on a $100 Samick and an amp out of a Squier Strat starter pack. It's not designed to recreate the nuianses of an accomplished player. Sloppy playing may not be so apparent. However, when that player goes to a Paul Reed Smith and a high-end Marshall, then all of the sloppiness comes to the forefront. Pro-level PA gear is the same.

[Hawk]

Let me make an attempt to clairify myself. A good sound tech can improve a band within limits. Just as a bad sound tech can ruin a good band. My point is that they do MORE than just make you louder. A hell of a lot more.

I have heard good bands sound like sh**, but they were louder, when they the sound tech did a poor job. I'm sure you have all witnessed this, A sound tech does so much more than make you louder.

So a bad band with a good sound tech will sound better than a bad band with a bad sound tech. That's my point. I have witnessed both scenarios.

[metalchurch]

A sound man can not make a singer sing on key

Well, actually...

Damn!! I wonder if that has a Halford preset?!!
Guys, I think I might be selling some Jacksons!

But seriously though if I could get away with that, I'd be a singer in a heartbeat.
I'd be the greatest thing since, well Halford...
Ok, I'm done now.

[VENTGtr]

For anyone not familiar with "Jones", he's a great drummer (At any genre), with
more experience than people twice his age...and he's not young....and...ironically...
a great sound...engineer... Has run at some big places...ironically, was just thinking
about his sound ability on the way in this morning.

Have known him a long time...and have never seen that many words typed by him.

Obviously, he wasn't talking about HIS band that he was seeing, but he knows
his stuff better than most, on stage or running, ever will. Oh...and I BELIEVE, HE
does run from the stage during their "smaller" shows...their backline is pretty low
volume, if I remember correctly (Been a while), and ALL of their guys are top-notch
players.

I think there is a tendency a lot of times by sound guys to mix towards what they
are familiar with normally mixing. Throw a funk band at a sound guy who normally
handles Death Metal and their not going to be attuned to how it SHOULD sound,
etc. Even going from "Classic" rock to newer stuff can be a problem for some.
I've had a great one tell me he had that problem.

Others just kind of go with what they think they know and can't/don't adjust, others
(And one in particular that I know very well who runs house at a well-known venue,
I can't say is exactly MUSICAL, and who's skills seem to have become...let's say...
lackadaisical) just kind of do...not too much...but the points below really apply to that
person, and, I'm sure to others...

I don't even want to get into the fact that at many clubs, the soundman is paid
out of the money taken in at the door--before (!) the band sees any of it.

"...it's a lot louder than it needs to be

these guys don't listen.

"I realized all he was doing was turning everything up,

I know there are some great sound guys who do a killer job. Several come to
mind (Best stage mix I've ever heard was coupl'a Fridays ago at 30 Something.
Zilly's awesome), but, and we all know some of these, I've also known a good
few many guys who, when their band splits up, end up with all this...stuff...and
decide their going to make more cash running sound. They do...but not well.

I agree that very often the stage volume is just ridiculously loud, whether because
of the band's gear volume, or it's a matter of the way the room is built (Saturday night,
amp on just below "1" (I run my head at lalf power (25w), through a 1x12), us playing
no louder than normal... and we have a low backline level) but it's like a little alcove,
and, at least to me, it seemed LOUD. May just be me. I'd defer to Rob for confirmation.
I tend to get a really bad headache around midway through the 2nd set nowadays.

ANYWAY, there are those considerations...but I've seen a lot more 4x12s roll into
places and not many places a 4x12 is usable to it's capability. Know that's not
what guitarist like to hear, but it's the case. Granted, some guys know how to
control that type of thing, but I've also run sound, and do pretty well...and trying
to mix around some of that stuff is ridiculous.

There is also the issue of simply TOO MUCH STUFF in the PA. Some people
seem to think it's still 1987 and those massive subs are A) Necessary, B) Work
everywhere. I've heard many a mush come from too much low end because the
sound guy has them...not NEEDS them, but HAS them.

Sometimes it's just best to listen to what someone who knows more than you says.
We were playing once a long time ago, the sound guy had a big system. TOO big.
Mr. Andy Tollins was there. He said to me "Kind'a came loaded for bear, didn't you?",
No idea what he meant at the time, but sure do now.

Regardless, when we're playing, the last thing I think I know is going is how it
sounds out front. While it's, in the end, our responsibility, at least in the eyes
of those there, I'm in no position to know from where I am when we're playing.
Unless I hear "SQQUUUEEEEELLLL" I have no idea.

It SHOULD be that you have someone there you trust. There are times when
you do have to question it though...but that's another story... Oh...and bassist,
it's just a joke...

[Redsfury]

Guitarist and Bassist: "we cant hear ourselves in our monitors that are 8 inches from our feet"
Engineer:"Turn your amps up"
Discuss

[Hawk]

Guitarist and Bassist: "we cant hear ourselves in our monitors that are 8 inches from our feet"
Engineer:"Turn your amps up"
Discuss

Other than a singer, usually you can hear yourself - you are in frint of your own amp. It's others you usually can't hear. So it would be odd for a sound tech to say that.

[Redsfury]

the guitarist said thats the loudest he ever had to turn his new amp up to to hear him self on stage

[Hawk]

the guitarist said thats the loudest he ever had to turn his new amp up to to hear him self on stage

Then perhaps the others were too loud ? and should have turned down. I'm not defending the sound tech in your situation. And trying to analyze it without being there would be impossible.

I should say (and should have said in my first post in this thread) that I know NOTHING about running a board. I have an idea what it does (EQs and compression and gates etc..) But my opinions in this thread are based on hearing bands and being able to recognize - and separate - the talent (or lack of) of the band and the talent (or lack of) of the sound tech.

[VENTGtr]

the guitarist said thats the loudest he ever had to turn
his new amp up to to hear him self on stage

It's possible that the sound guy was just running vocs through the mons.
Not uncommon (I actually prefer that sometimes (Dependent on the size
of the place, among other things. Actually, with our normal setup, I don't
use a monitor. One back by Jas, and one between Dusty and Rob).

If the guitarist turns up his amp...obviously it changes everything else in
the mix. Seems like a strange way for a sound guy to remedy a situation
that he can more readily control with a lot less effort.

[bassist_25]

Let me make an attempt to clairify myself. A good sound tech can improve a band within limits. Just as a bad sound tech can ruin a good band. My point is that they do MORE than just make you louder. A hell of a lot more.

I have heard good bands sound like sh**, but they were louder, when they the sound tech did a poor job. I'm sure you have all witnessed this, A sound tech does so much more than make you louder.

So a bad band with a good sound tech will sound better than a bad band with a bad sound tech. That's my point. I have witnessed both scenarios.

Ahhh, now I dig what you're saying.

[DirtySanchez]

WOW! You guys need to turn on the sarcasm detectors.

If this was serious the jokes on me, but I'm gonna say it's not.

The way it skews the page, kinda makes me think he found this somewhere and copied and pasted it here.

Anyways, I'll let you guys get back to taking everything too seriously.

[VENTGtr]

The way it skews the page, kinda makes me think he found this
somewhere and copied and pasted it here.

Nah, I think that's him...just feeling very out-of-character wordy.

[Jones]

if you really have never gotten a competent sound man, I'm going to guess you're playing way too fucking loud on stage. This is just a guess, judging by your rampant ego, and general douche-iness.

I don't think I've ever seen a band where the lead guitar wasn't loud enough.

Ever tried walking around the room during one of these horrible mixes?

The reason you can't hear the guitar wherever you're standing is probably because the guitar player is cranking a halfstack into his taint, and can't hear the rediculous amount of high frequencies, that are pointed directly into somebody's ear. probably the people that are walking out of the club when you think there's a SUPER AWESOME guitar solo happening.

Ease up man, I didn't write it, just thought it was funny and maybe someone else would as well. As for playing "way too fucking loud on stage" How bout we use no amps and electronic drums with in ears...... WE HAVE NO FUCK STAGE SOUND AT ALL SO BLOW ME!

[Jones]

And thanks for the kind words Dave.

It was just something that was passed on to me and I thought I'd share. I found it kind of funny, apparently most did not see the humor. Sorry to offend.
As for the singer and bassist digs, lighten up.....I'm a drummer for fucksake, gotta have a good bassist.

[mjb]

if you really have never gotten a competent sound man, I'm going to guess you're playing way too fucking loud on stage. This is just a guess, judging by your rampant ego, and general douche-iness.

I don't think I've ever seen a band where the lead guitar wasn't loud enough.

Ever tried walking around the room during one of these horrible mixes?

The reason you can't hear the guitar wherever you're standing is probably because the guitar player is cranking a halfstack into his taint, and can't hear the rediculous amount of high frequencies, that are pointed directly into somebody's ear. probably the people that are walking out of the club when you think there's a SUPER AWESOME guitar solo happening.

Ease up man, I didn't write it, just thought it was funny and maybe someone else would as well. As for playing "way too fucking loud on stage" How bout we use no amps and electronic drums with in ears...... WE HAVE NO FUCK STAGE SOUND AT ALL SO BLOW ME!

i thiink your last sentence would sound cooler if you edited in an "ing" at the end of fuck. its gonna read alot better. unless...... "no fuck stage sound" is something i'm not hip to, then nevermind.

i thought your op was funny.