The New Aristocracy At work

[lonewolf]

The value of the dollar world wide is declining because we are in debt up to our ears, and we are no longer considered a good investment. We are the largest debter nation in the history of the world.

I don't think it will be long until the price of oil will be based on the Euro.

Along with growth in the money supply (see: monetary inflation), the primary force pushing the dollar down right now is low US interest rates. Worldwide investors are always seeking the highest risk/return on their investments and the return on US securities is relatively low versus foreign securities.

In the domestic bond market, when interest rates go down, the price of bonds go up--bonds sell at a premium above par value. Foreign investors are not willing to pay a premium for a low return, so to level the playing field, the currency is devalued on the open market to a point that will make US securities cheaper and more attractive to them. As long as we keep printing too much money and interest rates stay low, the dollar will be weak.

If you want to point a finger at somebody, point it directly at the Federal Reserve.

You know my stance on the debt--to me there is no bigger issue because if the government doesn't balance the budget soon, we won't afford other issues;

however, the bleeding red ink is a result of the low dollar, not a cause. If the dollar was worth a full dollar, our deficit would be significantly lower than it is today.

[tornandfrayed]

Anyone think it is time? The Continental Congress debated and debated while people in Boston were dying. They said "not yet" while good patriots were being killed by the British. The "King" stopped hearing the voices of the colonists and said that they would pay the taxes and that was that because he knew best. The Congress was afraid to be without a "protector" (government) for fear of what might happen. Finally the vote was forced and good people were made to choose a side.

2 party system, trillion dollar debt these are things that the government has created. They have created this because they are out of touch with society. They have no clue what the real world has to deal with. No one bails me out when I go to far into debt. It is always up to me.

No one will bail you out either. We as a people are weak because we are afraid to be without a "protector". We need to stand up and be uncomfortable and afraid and at risk for the sake of our country and our children.

The vote will be forced someday I just hope that it is not too late....

Have a good day!

[Hawk]

Do you guys get out at all ? Not everyone is as smart as you. I see lots of people who couldn't balance a check book, let alone understand a complicated mortgage. So put back the regulations to protect the stupid.

I don't even like stupid people, I don't want to buy them a house

There are people who predict that if the loop hole were taken away. (I take it you still don't know what the loop hole is ?) If it were taken away, the price of gas would drop by 25%. These are people in government.

Who predicts that? I could predict anything I want.

Here:

I predict that gas would drop to $1.50 a gallon if Hawk would stop posting a bunch of links from biased sources that nobody is going to read, because even if they would back up his claim, nobody wants to agree with him anyway, even if it means being wrong.

You just won't hear it on Fox. And facts are facts no matter who the messenger is.

And you're personal attacks on me only seems to feed your own ego. Which is what people do when they are losing. They retreat to personal attacks.

I simply love politics. And I make decisions based on facts.
Where as ignorant people tend to go with emotions.

I also understand that central PA is mostly republican. I don't mind that at all. I don't mind being one who will stand up against the majority.

The difference between us is I back up what I say.

[Hawk]

Anyone think it is time? The Continental Congress debated and debated while people in Boston were dying. They said "not yet" while good patriots were being killed by the British. The "King" stopped hearing the voices of the colonists and said that they would pay the taxes and that was that because he knew best. The Congress was afraid to be without a "protector" (government) for fear of what might happen. Finally the vote was forced and good people were made to choose a side.

2 party system, trillion dollar debt these are things that the government has created. They have created this because they are out of touch with society. They have no clue what the real world has to deal with. No one bails me out when I go to far into debt. It is always up to me.

No one will bail you out either. We as a people are weak because we are afraid to be without a "protector". We need to stand up and be uncomfortable and afraid and at risk for the sake of our country and our children.

The vote will be forced someday I just hope that it is not too late....

Have a good day!

Do you realize that the country had a deficit when George Washington became president ? He then, became the first administration to tax the people to cover said deficit.

And he called out the army to quash a rebellion who thought they shouldn't have to pay taxes.

[MeYatch]

And you're personal attacks on me only seems to feed your own ego. Which is what people do when they are losing. They retreat to personal attacks.

What am I losing? I'm not even arguing with you. I am not for democrats or republicans or a third party. I am simply for making up one's own mind. Which is why your posts always rub me the wrong way. They always seem like I should be strapped down as in A Clockwork Orange to get the full effect.

[Hawk]

And you're personal attacks on me only seems to feed your own ego. Which is what people do when they are losing. They retreat to personal attacks.

What am I losing? I'm not even arguing with you. I am not for democrats or republicans or a third party. I am simply for making up one's own mind. Which is why your posts always rub me the wrong way. They always seem like I should be strapped down as in A Clockwork Orange to get the full effect.

Please accept my apologies. I thought you were arguing. It sounded like your were presenting arguments. But if you were not, I'm sorry for thinking you were.

[MeYatch]

Please accept my apologies. I thought you were arguing. It sounded like your were presenting arguments. But if you were not, I'm sorry for thinking you were.

I apologize also, I'm not arguing with you, but I am being argumentative about nothing in particular. Its understandable you'd take it the wrong way.

[Hawk]

Please accept my apologies. I thought you were arguing. It sounded like your were presenting arguments. But if you were not, I'm sorry for thinking you were.

I apologize also, I'm not arguing with you, but I am being argumentative about nothing in particular. Its understandable you'd take it the wrong way.

Cool !

[songsmith]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25945136

Exxon made 11.68 billion PROFIT on sales on 138.1 billion in sales. IN THREE MONTHS. Up 40% from same quarter last year.
For those of you who love saying they only make 8 cents on a gallon of gas, get out your calculators. I did, and it works out to 8.457%, or 33.83 cents per gallon. US fuel taxes are around 18 cents per gallon.
The FedGov DOES NOT make more than the oilco, as often noted by right-wingers.
Incidentally, once again Exxon posted the highest quarterly profit and sales figures for any US company, EVER, while YOU are sitting at home because you can't afford to go anywhere on vacation. Poor Big Oil, they're being unfairly blamed for the skyrocketing cost of of everything, it just ain't right, I tell ya. -------->JMS

[lonewolf]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25945136

Exxon made 11.68 billion PROFIT on sales on 138.1 billion in sales. IN THREE MONTHS. Up 40% from same quarter last year.
For those of you who love saying they only make 8 cents on a gallon of gas, get out your calculators. I did, and it works out to 8.457%, or 33.83 cents per gallon. US fuel taxes are around 18 cents per gallon.
The FedGov DOES NOT make more than the oilco, as often noted by right-wingers.
Incidentally, once again Exxon posted the highest quarterly profit and sales figures for any US company, EVER, while YOU are sitting at home because you can't afford to go anywhere on vacation. Poor Big Oil, they're being unfairly blamed for the skyrocketing cost of of everything, it just ain't right, I tell ya. -------->JMS

That % calculation you did is called the profit margin. It has absolutely nothing to do with gallons of gasoline. 8.457% is very typical for companies in the S&P 500

If I was running Exxon, I'd be drilling for MORE OIL and would try to get that 11.68 billion up to 15 billion next quarter.

I like Exxon and U.S. companies like them. They are the only thing left between me and having to learn Chinese.

BTW, (and I do quote CNNmoney.com):

"The company also paid $9.3 billion in income taxes, $8.4 billion in sales taxes, and $11.6 billion in royalties."

They are paying out nearly 3 times their profit amount in taxes. Imagine if you grossed $1000 per week, but only took home $285 after taxes.

[songsmith]

[That % calculation you did is called the profit margin. It has absolutely nothing to do with gallons of gasoline. 8.457% is very typical for companies in the S&P 500



Imagine if you grossed $1000 per week, but only took home $285 after taxes.

Hmmm, this was directed at Neo's who say Big Oil only makes 8 cents on a GALLON of gasoline, which is, was, and always will be false.
Now, imagine you made $1000 a week, and the CEO made around a million that same week. Seems fair, because he worked ten thousand times harder than you, and he's ten thousand times smarter. Right? Plus, he can afford tax shelters and finance lawyers that cut his tax percentage-share to below yours... oh, and he boned you on your stock options, too, because the company's profits were determined AFTER they took out his , and the rest of the board's, salaries and bonuses. And the new warehouse. And his office remodel. And his company car. And driver. and the corporate jet he uses for "business meetings" in Antigua. Etc.
I'll never be the boss because I can't f**k my employees, then look them in the eye. ---->JMS

[Blue Reality]

There are two sides to the oil companies...

Both Lonewolf's and Songsmith's are valid...

Exxon paid out nearly twice the revenue in taxes that they paid in profits. For a government that's a cash cow and necessary. Without Exxons's tax dollars your taxes would be much higher. If you bitch only about Exxon's profits, and don't consider the bennefits of a major corporation as an employer, tax payer and producer of wealth for its shareholders, you aren't willing to engage the issue in its compexity.

Exxon shows us that the rich are geting richer and the poor are working harder than ever and the system presents an inequity that is becoming increasingly more difficult to ignore and accept. To simply sing Exxon's praises without engaging the larger economic challenges in our system ignores the complexity of the problem.

What's the solution?

People who hate Exxon, do not want to pump gas provided by small market providers. Having easily acessible gas reqires a monumental infrastructure. And they cannot deal with this issue by by taxing Exxon's profits and redistributing wealth.

Exxon's profits cannot be justified in the face of widening income gap coupled with the ever increasing burdern to provide basic needs to the average American. Simlply saying "that's the way capitalsim works" ignores a simmering population that's had enough.

What then shall we do? Complaints are not an option........

[KyleMayket]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25945136

Exxon made 11.68 billion PROFIT on sales on 138.1 billion in sales. IN THREE MONTHS. Up 40% from same quarter last year.
For those of you who love saying they only make 8 cents on a gallon of gas, get out your calculators. I did, and it works out to 8.457%, or 33.83 cents per gallon. US fuel taxes are around 18 cents per gallon.
The FedGov DOES NOT make more than the oilco, as often noted by right-wingers.
Incidentally, once again Exxon posted the highest quarterly profit and sales figures for any US company, EVER, while YOU are sitting at home because you can't afford to go anywhere on vacation. Poor Big Oil, they're being unfairly blamed for the skyrocketing cost of of everything, it just ain't right, I tell ya. -------->JMS

That % calculation you did is called the profit margin. It has absolutely nothing to do with gallons of gasoline. 8.457% is very typical for companies in the S&P 500

If I was running Exxon, I'd be drilling for MORE OIL and would try to get that 11.68 billion up to 15 billion next quarter.

I like Exxon and U.S. companies like them. They are the only thing left between me and having to learn Chinese.

BTW, (and I do quote CNNmoney.com):

"The company also paid $9.3 billion in income taxes, $8.4 billion in sales taxes, and $11.6 billion in royalties."

They are paying out nearly 3 times their profit amount in taxes. Imagine if you grossed $1000 per week, but only took home $285 after taxes.

I think you don't understand the word "Profit"...that is the money that they have after paying for upkeep, workers, equipment, R&D, and TAXES! that is money that they put into their pockets at the end of the quarter! I just saw a commercial for Exxon/Mobile where their CEO said ," sure, we made record profits this quarter, but we're leading the way is finding new oil to drill for, and trying to find alternative sources of energy..." he went on with his bullshit, but all of that stuff he was talking about is all filed under (R)esearch & (D)evelopment... so that profit was still on top of all of that....Gov't should regulate prices, they do that in argentina, and last time i checked, gasoline is 15 cents/ Litre... that's about 60cents/ gallon....makes economic sense to me...

[Hawk]

There are two sides to the oil companies...

Both Lonewolf's and Songsmith's are valid...

Exxon paid out nearly twice the revenue in taxes that they paid in profits. For a government that's a cash cow and necessary. Without Exxons's tax dollars your taxes would be much higher. If you bitch only about Exxon's profits, and don't consider the bennefits of a major corporation as an employer, tax payer and producer of wealth for its shareholders, you aren't willing to engage the issue in its compexity.

Exxon shows us that the rich are geting richer and the poor are working harder than ever and the system presents an inequity that is becoming increasingly more difficult to ignore and accept. To simply sing Exxon's praises without engaging the larger economic challenges in our system ignores the complexity of the problem.

What's the solution?

People who hate Exxon, do not want to pump gas provided by small market providers. Having easily acessible gas reqires a monumental infrastructure. And they cannot deal with this issue by by taxing Exxon's profits and redistributing wealth.

Exxon's profits cannot be justified in the face of widening income gap coupled with the ever increasing burdern to provide basic needs to the average American. Simlply saying "that's the way capitalsim works" ignores a simmering population that's had enough.

What then shall we do? Complaints are not an option........

Now that's a nice post. It makes me think. I'll be thinking on it for a while.

[lonewolf]

That % calculation you did is called the profit margin. It has absolutely nothing to do with gallons of gasoline. 8.457% is very typical for companies in the S&P 500.

I think you don't understand the word "Profit"...that is the money that they have after paying for upkeep, workers, equipment, R&D, and TAXES! that is money that they put into their pockets at the end of the quarter! I just saw a commercial for Exxon/Mobile where their CEO said ," sure, we made record profits this quarter, but we're leading the way is finding new oil to drill for, and trying to find alternative sources of energy..." he went on with his bullshit, but all of that stuff he was talking about is all filed under (R)esearch & (D)evelopment... so that profit was still on top of all of that....Gov't should regulate prices, they do that in argentina, and last time i checked, gasoline is 15 cents/ Litre... that's about 60cents/ gallon....makes economic sense to me...

I understand the word profit perfectly. Apparently, you didn't understand that I was talking about profit margin.

Corporations don't "put money in their pocket." Profits are carried on the books as cash or other investments or distributed to shareholders as dividends.

R&D is a legitimate expense in any business. It is money spent to develop new products. Notice tha word spent, as in expend.

If you were referring to my paycheck analogy, that probably wasn't the best example, but I was trying to illustrate just how much these people contribute in taxes. It would make more sense if you compared the $1000 gross paycheck to the company's earnings before taxes.

[Sapo]

I don't have the time to go over your points one by one but here are a few of the fallacies in your argument...

The bail out IS a necessity.

The Mortgage companies were allowed to suck people in to mortgages they couldn't afford and then - because of deregulation -

WRONG. People got loans they knew they couldn't afford...and if they didn't know it then they should have known. Either way, they need to learn their lesson without my tax money bailing them out, and the mortgage companies need to go out of business. That's capitalism.

If the value of the dollar had not gone down (thanks to the deficit - most of which was created by the Reagan, Bush and Bush administrations - and the deregulation put in place - thanks to Phil graham - YOU WOULD HAVE $2.00 A GALLON RIGHT NOW !

WRONG. The value of the dollar is going down because we keep printing more money...there isn't any more wealth, we just print more money. Think of it like this...there's some Jack Daniels [wealth] in your glass (a good thing) but the bartendar keeps watering it down by adding more and more coke [paper money] to make it seem like there is a bigger and bigger drink. In reality, you have the same amount of alcohol but its more and more diluted. That is essentially how inflation works.

Gas will go down when there is more energy supply and less demand. Econ 101.

Great post Sapo.

Thanks!

[Sapo]

THEY WERE LAWFULLY ALLOWED TO PREY ON STUPID PEOPLE ! I don't understand why you don't have a problem with that ? Explain that to me please.
.

That's just life. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. That pain will condition them so they don't make the same mistake again. Nobody is helping me pay my mortgage. And they shouldn't. And the government damn sure shouldn't take my money and pay their mortgage. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Now it will cost YOU out of YOUR pocket, and generations to come ! If a Democrat had created this debacle you guys would be screaming . .

WRONG! I'll tell you right now what I think. I think Americans are being sold out and the country is being irreparably harmed and spent into oblivion by a corrupt congress (both parties) and executive.

If we didn't have a deficit, would we have a need to print more money ? Cause and effect.

Seems I covered your points.

WRONG! If you are running in a deficit - you need to spend less. You don't keep spending more and then try to print more money to get out of the mess you are in - that's a fool's game. I don't buy this unwritten rule that the budget has to get bigger and bigger each year. The federal government is bloated and inept at almost everything it does - and is exactly what the founding fathers did not want - a strong central government. Wanting to give the federal government even more power is, imo, insane.

[Hawk]

THEY WERE LAWFULLY ALLOWED TO PREY ON STUPID PEOPLE ! I don't understand why you don't have a problem with that ? Explain that to me please.
.

That's just life. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. That pain will condition them so they don't make the same mistake again. Nobody is helping me pay my mortgage. And they shouldn't. And the government damn sure shouldn't take my money and pay their mortgage. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Now it will cost YOU out of YOUR pocket, and generations to come ! If a Democrat had created this debacle you guys would be screaming . .

WRONG! I'll tell you right now what I think. I think Americans are being sold out and the country is being irreparably harmed and spent into oblivion by a corrupt congress (both parties) and executive.

If we didn't have a deficit, would we have a need to print more money ? Cause and effect.

Seems I covered your points.

WRONG! If you are running in a deficit - you need to spend less. You don't keep spending more and then try to print more money to get out of the mess you are in - that's a fool's game. I don't buy this unwritten rule that the budget has to get bigger and bigger each year. The federal government is bloated and inept at almost everything it does - and is exactly what the founding fathers did not want - a strong central government. Wanting to give the federal government even more power is, imo, insane.

So you think it's OK to pray on stupid people who can't even balance a check book. The loop hole - that YOU ARE PAYING FOR because of the collapse that IT CAUSED - was created to prey on these people. Before the loop hole was created this problem did not exist. WHY DON'T YOU GET THAT ?

That problem was created SOLELY by Phil Graham. That's a FACT. I also believe the congress spends way to much. BUT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE MORTGAGE DEBACLE. Created by Phil Graham. WHY DON'T YOU GET THAT ? These are FACTS that are traceable !

Damn, at least read before you comment. My last paragraph you quote explains that if there were NO DEFICIT. Can you see that. If there were no deficit, we WOULD NOT have to print more money !

I said the deficit CAUSED the devaluation of the dollar ! Wake up now. If there were no deficit - Would we have to print more money ?

I didn't answer my own question. It was inferred. The answer : NO we would not need to print more money !

Your points are covered AGAIN.

EDIT: I ask not to be quoted out of context. Thank you.

[Hawk]

Wow, I write like I'm yelling and screaming. I'm not. I'm sitting here relaxing in my living room. About to go practice on the kit a bit.

Sorry about the CAPS but I'm actually smiling and enjoying a little banter with you (plural). Like Rob always tells me, "It's all fun".

[Sapo]

So you think it's OK to pray on stupid people who can't even balance a check book. The loop hole - that YOU ARE PAYING FOR because of the collapse that IT CAUSED - was created to prey on these people. Before the loop hole was created this problem did not exist. WHY DON'T YOU GET THAT ?

That problem was created SOLELY by Phil Graham. That's a FACT. I also believe the congress spends way to much. BUT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE MORTGAGE DEBACLE. Created by Phil Graham. WHY DON'T YOU GET THAT ? These are FACTS that are traceable !

Damn, at least read before you comment. My last paragraph you quote explains that if there were NO DEFICIT. Can you see that. If there were no deficit, we WOULD NOT have to print more money !

I said the deficit CAUSED the devaluation of the dollar ! Wake up now. If there were no deficit - Would we have to print more money ?

I didn't answer my own question. It was inferred. The answer : NO we would not need to print more money !

Your points are covered AGAIN.

EDIT: I ask not to be quoted out of context. Thank you.

I'm growing tired of this debate. I'll try this one last time.

1. If you can't balance your checkbook, you have no business getting into a mortgage. End of story. If you do, you are on your own. Any company stupid enough to lend to such a high credit risk deserves to go under. If you can't get that point then we have nothing to discuss. The responsibility is with the individual and nobody else.

2. My response to your point was that deficits do not cause inflation. Printing more money leads to inflation. If I'm running in the red I don't make up more pretend money, I cut back on spending. The government should do the same. I understand what you wrote, I just think you are wrong. With or without a deficit, we should not be printing more money. Our government is addicted to spending our tax dollars. It is going to lead to our ruin.

[Hawk]

So you think it's OK to pray on stupid people who can't even balance a check book. The loop hole - that YOU ARE PAYING FOR because of the collapse that IT CAUSED - was created to prey on these people. Before the loop hole was created this problem did not exist. WHY DON'T YOU GET THAT ?

That problem was created SOLELY by Phil Graham. That's a FACT. I also believe the congress spends way to much. BUT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE MORTGAGE DEBACLE. Created by Phil Graham. WHY DON'T YOU GET THAT ? These are FACTS that are traceable !

Damn, at least read before you comment. My last paragraph you quote explains that if there were NO DEFICIT. Can you see that. If there were no deficit, we WOULD NOT have to print more money !

I said the deficit CAUSED the devaluation of the dollar ! Wake up now. If there were no deficit - Would we have to print more money ?

I didn't answer my own question. It was inferred. The answer : NO we would not need to print more money !

Your points are covered AGAIN.

EDIT: I ask not to be quoted out of context. Thank you.

I'm growing tired of this debate. I'll try this one last time.

1. If you can't balance your checkbook, you have no business getting into a mortgage. End of story. If you do, you are on your own. Any company stupid enough to lend to such a high credit risk deserves to go under. If you can't get that point then we have nothing to discuss. The responsibility is with the individual and nobody else.

2. My response to your point was that deficits do not cause inflation. Printing more money leads to inflation. If I'm running in the red I don't make up more pretend money, I cut back on spending. The government should do the same. I understand what you wrote, I just think you are wrong. With or without a deficit, we should not be printing more money. Our government is addicted to spending our tax dollars. It is going to lead to our ruin.

1. Damn, In case you haven't noticed YOU ARE STUCK FOOTING THE BILL ! (Thread title - remember) If the loop hole is NOT CLOSED it will happen again !

If the loop hole is closed YOU will NOT get stuck again !!!!!!Is that clear yet !

If the loop hole were NEVER OPENED in the first place - you would not be footing the bill now ! IS THAT PLAIN ENOUGH ? Close the loop hole or it will happen again. I can't print it any plainer.

2. You still don't get it. Damn it. NO DEFICITE = NO need to print more money !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How the hell is that wrong ? AND No more devaluation of the dollar because there would be no need to print more money . How is that wrong ?????????????????????

It's so plain that someone who could not balance a check book could still understand this !

[Hawk]

I agree, the individual who sold the loan should be held responsible for giving a loan to someone who can't afford it.

BUT PHIL GRAHAM MADE YOU the taxpayer RESPONSIBLE with an amendment he attached to an appropriations bill !

Now do you get why I want that changed back to the way it was . That the Mortgage holder (the borrower) is responsible to pay and the lender is responsible to qualify the mortgage holder. That's how it was before Graham.

Do you get it now?

[Hawk]

Deficit = need to print more money = devaluation of the dollar. BAD.

No Deficit = No need to print more money = a stronger dollar. GOOD

There.............................

[MeYatch]

Hawk, you are opperating under the assumption that it is society's responsibility to protect idiots from themselves. Not everyone thinks that way.

its not just option A) bail them out, let them do it again, bail them out again

option B) bail them out, then close this loophole, and be done with it

There's also Option C) let people take care of their own financial matters

[Hawk]

Hawk, you are opperating under the assumption that it is society's responsibility to protect idiots from themselves. Not everyone thinks that way.

its not just option A) bail them out, let them do it again, bail them out again

option B) bail them out, then close this loophole, and be done with it

There's also Option C) let people take care of their own financial matters

No, it is not society's responsibility to cover this mortgage fallout. That's my point. Option C was how it was before Graham created the loop hole, and we were OK.

The loop hole created the problem that Bush along with congress, is bailing out.

If we close the loop hole we will go back to option C. That's what WE want. That's what Obama wants. That IS NOT what McCain wants. McCain financial adviser IS Phil Graham. The very man who wrote the amendment that caused the problem .

I WANT OPTION C. - OBAMA WANTS OPTION C. - McCAIN & HIS FIANACIAL ADVISER DO NOT WANT OPTION C.