Sonically pleasing vs audibly annoying

[Killjingle]

Paul got me to thinking about midrange cut with these high gain amps that allot of guys like myself are using. When I first started rolling that mid knob up I hated the f*cking sounds that were coming out of my amp. Im almost to the point where soon I may be running too much mids. With Jason running his ENGL we finally have some good tone seperation and fill the ever elusive void very well in my opinion. The prob that I can foresee is that once your ear gets used to the higher extremes of midrange, its easy to overshoot. Anyone else ever run into that prob?

[Bloodsong]

my suggestion to any guitarist is to add a small touch on mid everytime you plug in. you won't notice it as much if ya just cranked it up all at once, and your ears will adjust to it and you'll start to appreciate the cut you get and how the guitar will start to really stand out. when it gets too obnoxious and notes start honking like a duck with tourettes, dial it back a bit and you're usually set to go. once you start adding some mid you can't live without it and guitar tone without out will sound like shit.

[bassist_25]

when it gets too obnoxious and notes start honking like a duck with tourettes, dial it back a bit and you're usually set to go

That's been my forumula as a bass player. Sometimes, my tone will start to get a little honky, especially in the upper mids, and then I'll ease it back and add a little lows to get everything smoothed out really well. As a bass player, I have to be cognizant that what may sound bad ass when I'm playing by myself isn't always going to be what sounds best when a drum kit and guitar rig are thrown in the mix. In my experience, a lot of those mids and upper frequencies that some bass players don't dig are exactly what gives the instrument its presence and note definition. You have to think of how an instrument's going to set in a mix, not how it sounds when you're standing there playing by yourself. The Jamerson sound works well in a lot of the older music with low gain amps, but it's going to get reduced to a vibrating rumble amongst Rectifiers and a slamming kick drum. With the exception of the tried-and-true 8x10 sealed fridge, I can't ever see myself using any bass rig setup that doesn't have a horn, hi-freq driver, or coaxial speaker thrown somewhere in the mix.

I think there are two things that players should keep in mind. 1.) The sound you're hearing two feet from your cab is not the sound that someone standing 20 feet from your cab is hearing. 2.) A quality amp should sound relatively good when set flat with just some minor tweaks to accomodate the room. An amp that requires tons of EQing to make sound good is not a good amp.

[old Skool]

I agree with Paul. A good rig should sound pretty good with the EQ flat then just tweak from there for personal preference. Over the years I used to run sonic maximizers and EQs and found as I upgraded equipment all those extras really killed the tone instead of helping. Most of the settings on my preamp have been untouched in years, with the exception of programming new settings as needed. One of the best things you can do is to work with experienced sound engineers and ask their opinion of how you sound in the FOH mix. I've heard engineers give good advise to people who let it go in one ear & out the other.

[orangekick]

I've also realized that more mids in your sound really can show you that something else in your chain may not be what you want it to be. When I started cranking the mids up I realized that I didn't like the sound of my speakers anymore. I swapped a few things around, bought a new cab and now I'm pleased as can be with my sound. We also sound better as a band.

[Killjingle]

We also sound better as a band

Million dollar statement. Its nice when someone realizes that by upgrading their gear they can make their whole band sound better. We had pretty loud stage volume the last time we played out; and I was very unhappy with what my delay pedal was doing. I realize I should run it in the fx loop; but jesus playing multiple band shows there just isnt that much time to get set up. I only use that pedal for like a 1 sec delay on the end of a tune; but with the amt of mid I was running it sounded stupid to me. That pedal gets retired.

When we first got The Embalmed back together I realized that I was going to be the weakest sound link, so I upgraded quickly.

[onegunguitar]

but jesus playing multiple band shows there just isnt that much time to get set up.

That's one big benefit with running a rack set up,all I have to plug in is my guitar,midi pedal(which I have the power running thru it to eliminate the need for a power cord) and 2 speaker cables and of course plug the power cord into the wall. And yes,it is an all tube system-ENGL preamp and a MESA BOOGIE power amp,although I use a Digitech GSP1101 for effects and channel switching.The bad side of my rack-it's freakin' heavy as shit!!

[orangekick]

Million dollar statement. Its nice when someone realizes that by upgrading their gear they can make their whole band sound better.

There's also a point where you realize certain amps don't work together no matter how much you want to keep an amp. I had an Orange Rockerverb 100 that I loved. The issue is that it sounded too much like our other guitarists Orange, so we ended up having volume battles because we each kept trying to hear ourselves.

[orangekick]

but jesus playing multiple band shows there just isnt that much time to get set up.

I'm the guy in my band with the obnoxious pedal board. I've found that having a well set up pedal board really helps a fast set up. I'd suggest a board for anyone, even if they only have a couple of pedals. I just leave my cables plugged in and roll them up on top of the board. I set it down, pop the top and plug everything in and I'm usually the first person in my band ready to rock.

[Killjingle]

I'm the guy in my band with the obnoxious pedal board

Im getting there myself. Im pretty efficient at getting on and off; but nobodys ever perfect. I have planet waves connecting them all together on my pedalboard... and boy what a difference that made. I

Scott... Im prob going to go to my grave denying "all in one" pedals; LOL; I just think I might be stubborn that way. Maybe one of these days I will give one a shot.

DOUBT IT

[orangekick]

I've never found a multi-effects unit that had enough sounds that I liked. There was always something missing or just lacking. I prefer being able to switch effects out at random.

[Killjingle]

I havent either... however I certainly do trust judgement by Old Skool and Bushy. Both have great tone and understanding of FX.

[orangekick]

I think it also really depends on which effects you use and how you use them. I tend to use my effects in ways other than what most others might use them for.

[bassist_25]

That's one big benefit with running a rack set up,all I have to plug in is my guitar,midi pedal(which I have the power running thru it to eliminate the need for a power cord) and 2 speaker cables and of course plug the power cord into the wall.

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read Chad's issue with switching out backline in the middle of a show. An Engl? Damn Scott, you change amps more than Tim Kelly changes basses. LOL

Im prob going to go to my grave denying "all in one" pedals; LOL; I just think I might be stubborn that way. Maybe one of these days I will give one a shot.

Chad, what types of multi-FX have you tried? There's a WORLD of difference between a $250 Digitech processor and a $1500 Lexicon or TC Electronics unit. Everyone digs what they dig - it's no mystery that I like rack setups - but if you give a high-end processor a whirl, you may change your mind.

There's also a point where you realize certain amps don't work together no matter how much you want to keep an amp. I had an Orange Rockerverb 100 that I loved. The issue is that it sounded too much like our other guitarists Orange, so we ended up having volume battles because we each kept trying to hear ourselves.

This has been my experience as well. I find that most bands who run two Marshalls usually have a thin sound and there isn't enough diversification in guitar tone. Now on the other hand, two high-gain amps my make the sound too thick. I've heard the Marshall/Mesa double-punch in bands, and it's "tits," as Eric Cartman would say. A good example of a dual-guitar mix is the recordings of the Opposition. I think that Ritchie mixed those. There's great diversification in the guitars. They sound like a dual-guitar band, instead of just one solid wall of guitar.

[Ron]

Agreed on all points.
When I used to run FOH years ago, I used a board with dual parametric mid controls. When mixing 2 guitars, each got their own separate chunk of the midrange band. Whoever was playing lead also got a barely noticeable touch of delay to ever so slightly pull them out of the mix. This definitely helped keep the guitars from stomping on each other, especially when they both had the same amp/speaker combination.

[onegunguitar]

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read Chad's issue with switching out backline in the middle of a show. An Engl? Damn Scott, you change amps more than Tim Kelly changes basses. LOL

Haha,yea,maybe I have been switching around lately,but after paying child support for a long time and now having one son grown and my youngest one living with me and my support order is no more-I can finally afford to buy equipment that I want(or don't want ). I recently added an ENGL Thunder 50 to my collection,why not,ya only live once!

[old Skool]

Thanks for the compliments Chad! I've been a big midi rack guy for some time. I just really dig the diversity. Being able to change the preamp and effects at the same time with one switch is awesome. Also with so many different combinations possible it really helps add dynamics to the songs we cover. Don't get me wrong, I've heard guys play through a single channel all night have have incredible dynamics. Just saying with the rack you can expand that even further. Quicker set up/tear down time is a big plus as well. As far as effect units go, is it just me or do all processors seem to come with "over the top" factory presets? I've owned three different units over the years and none of them had what I would consider "usable" presets. I understand the fact that they want to impress you with the capabilities of the unit but come on. Outside of some crazy or specific patches I typically use just a bit of delay & reverb to make my tone a little dimensional without sounding like I'm playing in a cave. Those processors can be a little confusing at first but after you play around with them a while they're not too bad. They do take some patience and trial & error.