Okay, I have my ultimate signal chain idea mapped out.

[bassist_25]

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this, and would like to know what you cats think. It would be easy if I could do like a Guitargeek diagram of this or something, but unfortunately, I don't have those tools, so bear with me.

First, thing would be my bass (of course). Then I would plug straight into my rack tuner. From there, the signal would go into a splitter box. One side would go to an Aguilar DB900 tube direct box, which would send a pre-EQ signal to the desk. The other side would go into an A/B box. One side would go to a clean preamp, which right now would be my Bmax, and the other side would go to a dirty preamp, which would most probably be either a SansAmp RBI or an Aguilar Agro. Both preamps would be fed into a Rane MLM-42 rack mixer or something similar (thanks to Sapo for that idea!) where I could mix the output gains of both preamps. From there, one output would send a post-EQ signal to the desk, while another output would go to my power amp.

If two channels are not too much to ask for, the FOH engineer could then mix both the pre and post-EQ signals. That way, I still always have a clean channel along with a dirty channel. I could switch between one, two, or both preamps with the A/B box. The direct box would provide tube warmth, while the clean preamp would provide solid-state speed, clarity, and definition. The dirty preamp would serve as a psuedo-overdriven SVT. old sKool also put forth the idea of using an octave box on the dirty channel to help give some upper saturation to the sound for under guitar solos. That would be cool with running a pre-EQ channel, because then I'd still have an unadulterated bass sound underneath the overdrive sound. Unfortunately, most ocatve pedals add an ocatve below the fundemental. The ones that add upper octaves can be a big pricey. Sapo put for the idea of the rack mixer, because I was trying to come up with simple and cost effective way (i.e., not investing in a Bradshaw switching system) to run dual preamps. I could go without the mixer, but then I would need another channel at the board, and it would be a nightmare for both me and the engineer to mix the two output gains without clipping anything the process. Plus, it eliminates the the need to have to bring two cabinets to a gig, since both preamps are being dumped into the same source.

What do you cats think? Do you think the original signal is going to be degraded due to all of the signal routing? Anyone have an easier (or cheaper) solution?

[metalchurch]

That's alot to take in at 6 am! I'm trying to follow, lol!
It sounds like it would work ok to me. You might want to run good cables through out the whole system unless you already are. The shorter the better, as I'm sure you already know. I'm not a Bass player, so I don't have the insight as some of the other guys on here, but it sounds feasable to me.

Could always A/B into a Jackson and a Marshall during solos! haha!

That is weird that octave pedals are always below and not above the key. Whats up with that? You could always transpose your chords so that you would play an octave higher, if possible, and then let the Octave pedal do it's natural thing, by doubling it one below.

[slink]

I had to read this twice to get what , i think, you want to do.

I heard a sound clip of a guitar, bass and drums band, where the bass player sent a clear signal to his bass amp and a distorted signal to the PA. He had it set up with a foot switch for the distorted signal and only used it when the guitarist took a lead that way he could help fill in. Theirs is a much more simplistic approach but it sounded really good.

Let us know how the octave pedal works, intresting. Jeff Leper uses a Roland pedal on his guitar to get all kinds of sounds but I don't know if they would work right on bass.

[MeYatch]

http://greenvilleonline.com/news/opinio ... 838047.htm

[MeYatch]

I think you need a stereo bass (such as a rickenbacker), and then double the whole shebang

[MeYatch]

seriously though.

I don't see the need to split the signal 3 ways. I suppose I get why you'd want to, and when you are in the studio spending $100,000 an hour of someone else's money it would be a cool thing to try. But I think with some time you can set your post EQ clean/dirty setup to just take one signal, and send it to the PA.

If you are really worried something is getting lost in translation, maybe try micing the cab instead of sending a DI?

I don't mean to be insulting, but I just think you are going far beyond the scope of "bar band"

I dig the octave pedal idea though. Let me know if you get that running, I'd be curious to hear it. Maybe if you found a pedal that could do this, you could split the signal out of the pedal into original signal, and octave signal, and just distort the octave?

A couple years ago, I saw a pedal that would split the your signal in two, keep one the same, and add another signal an octave up, and then add a 5th above that. You could then send the octave/5th signal to another amp, or anything you wanted. I don't remember the name of it, and I havn't seen anything since, but I always thought that would be an awesome pedal for use under a guitar solo.

[songsmith]

Mine goes like this:

Dobro--->Your ears.

---------------------------------->JMS

[Colton]

Mine goes like this:

Dobro--->Your ears.

---------------------------------->JMS

watch it, might have a few wires crossed =)

[Ron]

I don't mean to be insulting, but I just think you are going far beyond the scope of "bar band".

I have to agree. As a band playing a lot of gigs, you may be better off working toward simplification. Each piece you add to your setup is another possible failure point, adds to set-up and tear-down time, takes up space, costs money, causes the sound tech grief, etc.
If it were me, my goal as a bassist would be to have one amp, one cab, and a sound that may not be quite as versatile, but more universal.
I can see your proposed setup sounding good after a while when everything's dialed in, but do you really need to have the added complexity, or is this just something you're entertaining?

[bassist_25]

Hey guys! Thanks for all of the input. I like to get an objective view on these types of things.

But I think with some time you can set your post EQ clean/dirty setup to just take one signal, and send it to the PA.

That was actually my original plan. The tube DI was sort of something I've been thinking about over the past couple of months. I wanted to do that for a couple of reasons. First, I wanted a tube signal mixed with a solid-state signal. old sKool and I have talked about my sound being good, but it just misses that one thing, tube warmth. I still like the cleaness and fast transients of solid-state though, hence why I'm entertaining the idea of a tube and SS signal. I've also been meaning to pick up my own personal DI box, so why not go with a tube unit? Another reason is that I'm still a believer that an overdriven bass tone sounds best when there's a clean sound underneath. A lot of bass overdrive just seems to lose the fundementals of the notes to my ears.

If you are really worried something is getting lost in translation, maybe try micing the cab instead of sending a DI?

Well, my cabs are rear-ported, so right now that's not really a good option. A sealed cab would be ideal. Despite my Eden tangent from a few weeks back, new cabs are low on my priority list right now.

I don't mean to be insulting, but I just think you are going far beyond the scope of "bar band"

I respect that opinion. But I've always viewed it that a band should make it their priority to have the most professional sound as possible. I'm not saying that guitarists should go invest in switching systems and bring four different rigs to play classic rock covers in Altoona corner bars, but I think that not enough people sit and really think about what their rig's doing. We could say that a guitarist investing in a Diezel guitar rig is spending too much just to play in local clubs, so he should just buy a Crate instead, or that a drummer should scrap the idea of getting a DW kit and just settle for a Singerland kit. The fact is the Diezel and DW are going to project a more professional sound.

A couple years ago, I saw a pedal that would split the your signal in two, keep one the same, and add another signal an octave up, and then add a 5th above that. You could then send the octave/5th signal to another amp, or anything you wanted. I don't remember the name of it, and I havn't seen anything since, but I always thought that would be an awesome pedal for use under a guitar solo.

Wow, that sounds awesome. That's defintely something I'd like to get a hold of.

As a band playing a lot of gigs, you may be better off working toward simplification. Each piece you add to your setup is another possible failure point, adds to set-up and tear-down time, takes up space, costs money, causes the sound tech grief, etc.

All good points and things that I've been trying to take into consideration. I've thought of ways to simplify things. I would most probably mount the splitter box and DI onto a movable shelf in my rack. The only extra things I'd have to plug in from what I'm plugging in now would be the two cables going from the splitter box (one going to the DI), and the two cables going from the A/B switch (which would be on the floor) to the two preamps.

I really don't think it would be very difficult to tweak the sound. Currently, I do very little tweaking from room to room, so I think once I got familiar with using the dirty preamp, it wouldnt' be too difficult. I decided to use the rack mixer to make the engineer's life easy. That way everything's mixed before it goes to the board. Currently, most FOH engineers don't really do much tweaking on me. Some may clean up a little 1k-2k, but most like what's coming out of my DI (which is post-EQ). If we're doing a multi-band bill, I'm not going to worry about it if everyone's switching out backline. I think that it would be cool for headling shows, though.

Failures are a major concern! Luckily, my sound isn't going to be contingent upon all of this. It's just another dimension I'm thinking of adding. I like the DI box too, because it almost always ensures that their will always be a signal to the board. I suppose if I decided to do all of this, I would have to break down and buy high quality patch cables. I'm thinking Monster.

do you really need to have the added complexity, or is this just something you're entertaining?

A little bit of both. I'm not going to be doing this tomorrow or anything. I'm going to be applying to grad school here in a few months, so I'm not going to have a ton of money to throw around for a while. It's just something I've been planning. The reason I want to do it is because while I'm not a big fan of the overdriven SVT sound, there are times that I think that it's beneficial, especially in some cover music. I like to try and nail stuff as closely as possible, and if there's a song utilizing a heavily overdriven bass tone (e.g., a Rage Against the Machine tune), I want to try and replicate that also. Also, when playing in a single guitar band, you sometimes have to come up with creative ways to fill out the sound. When it comes to laying something down under a solo, I first try and fill things out with my playing by adding extra runs, chords, double-stops, etc.; sometimes, though, I just have to nail down 8th note roots because that's what the pocket calls for, and having a huge bass sound under that will help carry things.

Again, thanks for everyone's insight. It's good to get other opinions. It would be cool to hear from some sound engineers to see if this would be realistic from their standpoint.

[MeYatch]

I still think you should eliminate the pre-EQ DI. The way I see it, its just added complexity, plus another channel on the board.

I'd try to find a way to incorperate it into just one FOH signal.

[MeYatch]

We could say that a guitarist investing in a Diezel guitar rig is spending too much just to play in local clubs, so he should just buy a Crate instead, or that a drummer should scrap the idea of getting a DW kit and just settle for a Singerland kit.

I think there's a lot more truth to this than you suspect. I've been looking at getting a tube amp, but I know I'm fooling myself to think that anyone but me, and maybe the rest of my band will even notice a difference, let alone care.
It might make me like it more, and inspire me to play better, and thats good, but its not the same thing as actually sounding appreciably better.

[Punkinhead]

I respect that opinion. But I've always viewed it that a band should make it their priority to have the most professional sound as possible. I'm not saying that guitarists should go invest in switching systems and bring four different rigs to play classic rock covers in Altoona corner bars, but I think that not enough people sit and really think about what their rig's doing. We could say that a guitarist investing in a Diezel guitar rig is spending too much just to play in local clubs, so he should just buy a Crate instead, or that a drummer should scrap the idea of getting a DW kit and just settle for a Singerland kit. The fact is the Diezel and DW are going to project a more professional sound.

I understand where you are coming from but, that only pertains to two individuals who are at the same level from a talent and a knowledge standpoint. A good player with so-so gear will always project better than a shitty player with a more professional sound.

For example, an exercise Steve Vai had to do when he was with Zappa was to play through a shitty amp with a bad sound. The end result was it was still Steve Vai on guitar. Sometimes it's as much what you are playing.

Although, when you are good and have a shitload of awesome gear, it's better than all of them...

[HurricaneBob]

ROFL, Slingerlands are not professional.....

The things that come off your fingertips sometimes im like WTF?
Classic rocker here jumping hard on this one.

What the fuck is that hogwash analogy, i'd rather have a set of 65' 70' Slingerlands than a brand new DW kit. Not for the vintage value either, for the sound. They still do make Slings and have a $5000 line if you didnt know. Its all ear and heart in ones sound, i wish you tech heads would remember that.

Getting ones sound sometimes never happens for some musicians because they dont understand where it comes from first.

Paul, i have played with your rig with Jeff on it and frankly it didn't impress me. Wasn't bad but Hard to hear even though you had it turned towards the drums, i had to have Zilly pump the monitor. Yeah im deaf...but our classic rock rigs cut.

If your this serious about your playing fuck school and buy an Eden...

[bassist_25]

Geez Bobby, no need to flip out. If you don't dig what I dig in sound, that's okay. There's nothing wrong with what you guys do or play. For that style of music, the Fender Twin Reverb is the sound. I have no problem with "Classic Rock" rigs, but they're not what I dig, especially for the style of music that we play. I never said anything against classic rock or its players. My analogy was that it's foolish to use some gargantuan rig when you don't need to in order to have access to those sounds. And you'll never hear a bigger advocate than me for playing with heart and good technique. I don't think the argument was ever that the player isn't the most important piece of the puzzle (something that I always seem to get accused of advocating on here for some reason).

Though I must admit that I probably should have researched the Singerland analogy a little more. I admit that I'm not the most knowledgable drum guy. It's cool if some things I say make you say, "WTF?" I say what I say on here, and people can agree, disagree, or ignore it. It's pissed a few people off, but I'd rather do that than play it safe and walk around eggshells here all of the time. At the end of the day, I try to be respectful to everyone, unless they give me a reason not to be. One thing most RPers can agree on though is the need for bean dispensers to come stock on most instruments.

[TJ Kelly]

Eden Nuff Said!

Please stop name dropping equipment. There is no way most of that stuff ever shows itself in good old central PA. I'm an old road dog who has been through lot's of high end brands through the years and believe me I'd know if any of it showed up round here!

[bassist_25]

How many custom boutique basses have you had, Tim? Most of the bass players I see around here are using Fender Ps and Js, Ibanezes, and Ernie Balls. You might see the occasional Rickenbacker or Spector. What's it matter what people use around here? As long as it's quality piece and it does for them whatever they want it to do. You flip basses every couple of months. I've never played the pretentious European stuff (not that I ever claimed that I have), but at least have some experience with the brands that I mention. I'm lucky that I found the bass that I fall in love with every time I pick it up and play it (I think the picture of its headstock has been my longest running avatar on here). I'm just wondering how I can improve rig-wise. You've obviously found the rig that you're completely happy with. I found the bass that I'm happy with. It's no different.

Geez, I didn't realize that a fucking tech thread about a bass rig was going to get so many people freaking out.

[MeYatch]

BURN THE WITCH!!

[bassist_25]

BURN THE WITCH!!

Indeed. If people are going to jump me about stuff, jump on me about my knack for promoting a gig in the middle of a flamewar or my use overly pretentious words, not "Hey, what do you think about this bass rig idea?"

[HurricaneBob]

For me, its the elitist way you put things Paul, and you got called on it, big deal, ill flame all day. Some people actually can see through the smoke.

BURN THE WITCH!!

Come light a match under my ass there choad.....

[BassFinger]

One thing most RPers can agree on though is the need for bean dispensers to come stock on most instruments.

......I like beans !!!

[ToonaRockGuy]

I don't follow all the tech stuff, Paul (I'm not bright enough), but I can tell you this. Musician's ears are way different than the ears of the audience. We hear stuff that they don't comprehend, and in the end, it really doesn't matter. I've heard Dave Russell (Banditos) play on a kit that is amazingly beat up complete with broken cymbals, and probably only worth a hundred bucks, and he rocks that bad boy out like nobody's business, and sounds awesome doing it! Hell, I play an entry-level Yamaha drumkit, but they sound good!

Something I learned recently...don't overthink things. Just go with the flow. You've always had a killer bass sound, Paul, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to up your rig and your sound. But remember, you're really just upping it for you. I've never heard anyone that's seen you say, "I went and saw Bad Daze and that bass player's sound was shit. I think he needs a tube DI, a clean and dirty pre', an Eden rig and a Spector bass.". They think you sound awesome. Don't sweat it so much.

Remember, pretty much all the musicians on here could play Sears instruments and make them sound good. It's the musician that makes the sound overall, not so much what gear you play. Gear helps, of course, but don't overanalyze.

Just my .02.

Oh, I forgot....

BURN THE WITCH!!

How do you know she is a witch??

[lonewolf]

'COS SHE LOOKS LIKE ONE....

Yeah, talk about overkill. There are only 2 or 3 people that pay detailed attention to the sound of your bass:

you
the drummer (maybe)
the sound guy (maybe)

as a guitarist, all I care about is that the bass is not muddy or tinny and its filling in the bottom.

If the sound is blended right, the crowd won't know the difference between the improved mousetrap (my terminology for exceedingly complex systems) and a high powered Carvin bass amp.

When playing covers in rooms in central PA, all you need is a good powerful amp with a good compensated DI and a 4x10 cab or a 15 + 2x10. At the extreme is the old dual 4x10 stack trick. Anything else is a waste of time, money, effort and most importantly, a train wreck waiting to happen.

I suppose some sound guys like multiple signals, but I'd rather have a single signal, preferably from a factory installed speaker compensated (EQ'd) DI.


BRING HER FORWARD!

[BDR]

I don't know what any of this $hit means ...



... but I was toying with the idea of using rechargable batteries (probably nickel metal hydride) in my mic intead of alkaline Duracells.

Thoughts?

r:>)

[BDR]

... a single signal

Say that three times fast ...

r:>)