Political Poll for Keeping God in the Pledge

byndrsn · Post by **byndrsn** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:09 pm

Okay folks, this poll (and the other nine like it) are being done because of a political discussion that is being held in the General Discussion section of RockPage.

Let us know your stance!!!

Urbs

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:42 pm

Against

Though I technically don't care. I'm not an athiest, but if I were, I'd have better issues to spend my time on than if children are saying "Under God..."

But on a philosophical stand, I think that it shoudn't be in there. I believe in as much of a secular government as possible.

bfoust · Post by **bfoust** » Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:57 pm

For. Screw the one guy in Cali who wanted it taken out. Here's a suggestion, Cover your ears.

ToonaRockGuy · Post by **ToonaRockGuy** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:54 am

Against.

Seperation of Church and State, period. The Church should have no say in politics, and the State should have no say in Church issues.

And just for the record, I am for taking the Ten Commandments out of courthouses. People use the bullsh*t argument that the Ten Commandments are the basis of law.

I submit to you (source: The Bible, Deuteronomy 5:6-5:21 NRSV):
-------------------------------------------------------

1. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.

2. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

3. Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; you shall not do any work...

4. Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.

5. You shall not murder.

6. Neither shall you commit adultery.

7. Neither shall you steal.

8. Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.

9. Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife.

10. Neither shall you desire your neighbor's house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
----------------------------------------

There are the 10 Commandments. Can someone please explain to me, that if the above is the basis for LAW, what the HELL #1, 2, 3, 4, 9, and 10 have to do with law in the least?

I rest my case.

AtoMikEnRtiA · Post by **AtoMikEnRtiA** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:25 pm

ToonaRockGuy wrote:Against.

Seperation of Church and State, period. The Church should have no say in politics, and the State should have no say in Church issues.

And just for the record, I am for taking the Ten Commandments out of courthouses. People use the bullsh*t argument that the Ten Commandments are the basis of law.

I submit to you (source: The Bible, Deuteronomy 5:6-5:21 NRSV):
-------------------------------------------------------

1. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.

2. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

3. Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; you shall not do any work...

4. Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.

5. You shall not murder.

6. Neither shall you commit adultery.

7. Neither shall you steal.

8. Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.

9. Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife.

10. Neither shall you desire your neighbor's house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
----------------------------------------

There are the 10 Commandments. Can someone please explain to me, that if the above is the basis for LAW, what the HELL #1, 2, 3, 4, 9, and 10 have to do with law in the least?

I rest my case.

AMEN KEVIN! You took my argument, and built on it and gave it a George Carlin-like twist.. nicely done!

SpellboundByMetal · Post by **SpellboundByMetal** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:45 am

why change it NOW? everyone just wants to be catered to.

SuffrInLys · Post by **SuffrInLys** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:36 am

for keeping it in

that is why and how this country was founded.. if you don't like your heritage move to a different country..

AtoMikEnRtiA · Post by **AtoMikEnRtiA** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:43 pm

SuffrInLys wrote:for keeping it in

that is why and how this country was founded.. if you don't like your heritage move to a different country..

your heritage is more than likely NOT American. Are you Native American? if not.. then your heritage is not american..

this goes back to what Paul (bassist_25) said in another topic.. we as Americans are fortunate to have had 2 parents conceive and deliver on American soil.. we are no more American than the city and ground we were born into.. I myself am a descendant of Slovaks and Germans.. but I am an American only because I was born in McConnellsburg, Pennsylvania. I am an American only because my parents were born in America..

I'm against this.. because this country was founded upon RELIGIOUS FREEDOM .. to believe or not to believe.. it's not catering to specific people.. it's covering your ass so others dont feel you're oppressing your beliefs onto them..

ToonaRockGuy · Post by **ToonaRockGuy** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:47 am

AtoMikEnRtiA is right, to a point. My long held belief is this:

"I make no bones about being 100% Hispanic. I've taken more shit over my race than most anyone here on Rockpage. I've had ignorant people tell me to get the fuck out and go back to my country. To which I respond with this...

I may be Hispanic. To you, I may be a beaner/wetback/spic/insert your generic Latino stereotype here. But you know what? At least MY people didn't come here and kill, rape, plunder, and pillage. At least my race didn't commit a genocide ONLY surpassed by the Nazi Regime in WW2.

I'll go back to my sun-kissed tropical island to sit on the beach drinking good Puerto Rican rum all day long, as long as you take your ass back to your cold, frozen, Slavic country and give America back to who it belongs to: The Native American."

Make no mistake, however. This country was not founded on religious freedom, that is a pretense. This country was founded on the nearly complete extermination of a race of people, simply because they had different beliefs than were held by the immigrants from Europe.

Think about it.

Oh, and if you're bitching about illegal immigration...think about it. You're technically an illegal immigrant too.

SpellboundByMetal · Post by **SpellboundByMetal** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:15 am

WOW, you guys are really freaking out about this, huh???

but anyway to respond to you last comment..
YEAH and i am one who is bitching about illegals!!!!!

when MOST illegals plan to come here for only a couple years to get money saved to go back to wherethefuckever and be "RICH", thats where i have a problem.

when they work and pay no taxes, i have a problem with that. HOW can they want rights in a country they DONT pay taxes in that they entered ILLEGALLY??????

The pile into houses & apartments....oh wait AND into cars!!!. which is not only a fire hazard/unsafe, but its unhealthy AND ILLEGAL!!!

now i am only speaking about the experiances ive had where i have lived for most of my life in frederick,md.
there is a process to enter this country....they should do that if they want to come here. LEARNING ENGLISH SHOULD BE A PART OF THAT PROCESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Punkinhead · Post by **Punkinhead** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:35 am

ToonaRockGuy wrote:
Oh, and if you're bitching about illegal immigration...think about it. You're technically an illegal immigrant too.

I don't really give a crap one way or another on this but, how is that? I thought an illegal immigrant was one who was not a citizen (see not paying taxes or other things that citizens do). Technically, we are immigrants but, our families became citizens, thus making us legal. I think if illegal immigrants became citizens, in line with the other immigrants who are doing it, and followed the laws of the land as everyone else had to, this argument would never have surfaced.

Or maybe I'm seeing it wrong.

AtoMikEnRtiA · Post by **AtoMikEnRtiA** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:39 pm

ToonaRockGuy wrote:I'll go back to my sun-kissed tropical island to sit on the beach drinking good Puerto Rican rum all day long, as long as you take your ass back to your cold, frozen, Slavic country and give America back to who it belongs to: The Native American."

hey man, the slavics arent the only ones who raped, and killed lol.. ill have you know that was the scandinavians and the Anglo-Saxons haha - blame the norwegians and the british..

and for whatever rape/pillage that slavic people commited.. i think it's fair to say that mr. hitler let them know what it felt like when he invaded czechoslovakia, and slaughtered an entire village (litice).. so i think that balanced out.

thats why personally i have always felt an affliction.. im as much slovak as i am german.. maybe i should just become emo and kill myself to portray the accurate account of what went down in the 1940s hahaha

Hawk · Post by **Hawk** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:15 pm

This country was founded and created based on Judeo Christian principals. Those principals served / serve us well. If you don't like them..........leave. Russia has separation of church and state. Try living there.

We do not and should not have separation of church and state. Our Constitution doesn't say anything about separation of church and state ! Never did ! It says there should be no state church, leaving everyone to chose their own church.

Just a question. Why are non believers afraid of the mention of God ?

byndrsn · Post by **byndrsn** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:25 pm

Hawk wrote:

Just a question. Why are non believers afraid of the mention of God ?

That is a fantastic question!!!!!! I am an athiest - but I have no problem with the word God on our money, in the pledge or displayed on government property.

I think a lot of these "athiests" that you see on the news are just attention seekers.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:13 pm

Hawk wrote: Russia has separation of church and state. Try living there.

Yes, because communisim = Godlessness. They actually conducted a research on that and found that there's an inverse correlation of -.94. The more socialist you are, the less Chistian your belifs are.

C'mon people, these appeals to tradition and authority arguments don't hold any water.

BDR · Post by **BDR** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:58 am

ToonaRockGuy wrote:"I make no bones about being 100% Hispanic.

You're Hispanic? I thought you were Polish ...

r:>)

VENTGtr · Post by **VENTGtr** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:37 pm

The "God" line was put in their because of fear. I believe in the separation of church and state and that everyone has the right to believe in "God", beans, etc. however they choose
and if "God" is going to be mentioned they better mention them all then at the very end
discount them all.

For anyone who says "This is a Christian country" better define whether or not they're okay
with a Catholic or Protestant ideal being pushed because they are pretty far apart themselves and I don't think Protestant parents are going to want their kids being given
Catholic values that go against Protestant values, or vice versa.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:58 pm

Good points, Dave. The first settlers were very much protestant. If you weren't a WASP, then forget it. The Irish and Italians dealt with immense discrimination because they were Catholic. The "This Country was founded on Those Priniples" arguments don't work with me either. The country was also founded on the invasion, massacre, forced assimilation, and then eventual forced migration of an indigenous people, so I assume that it's alright to go beat a Native America on the head with a rock. I mean it is tradition, is it not? BTW, I'm part Indian...and I blame that on why my sideburns won't grow in thick enough for me to have a full beard.

VENTGtr · Post by **VENTGtr** » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:06 pm

"I'm part Indian...and I blame that on why my sideburns won't grow in thick enough for me to have a full beard."

That's hysterical. Tell ya, when muttonchops make a comeback, you're be hatin' the ancestors!

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:39 pm

I thank my lucky stars every day that I'm not Amish. I'd be ostracized for the rest of my life. LOL

whitedevilone · Post by **whitedevilone** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:48 am

ToonaRockGuy wrote:AtoMikEnRtiA is right, to a point. My long held belief is this:

"I make no bones about being 100% Hispanic. I've taken more shit over my race than most anyone here on Rockpage. I've had ignorant people tell me to get the fuck out and go back to my country. To which I respond with this...

I may be Hispanic. To you, I may be a beaner/wetback/spic/insert your generic Latino stereotype here. But you know what? At least MY people didn't come here and kill, rape, plunder, and pillage. At least my race didn't commit a genocide ONLY surpassed by the Nazi Regime in WW2.

I'll go back to my sun-kissed tropical island to sit on the beach drinking good Puerto Rican rum all day long, as long as you take your ass back to your cold, frozen, Slavic country and give America back to who it belongs to: The Native American."

Make no mistake, however. This country was not founded on religious freedom, that is a pretense. This country was founded on the nearly complete extermination of a race of people, simply because they had different beliefs than were held by the immigrants from Europe.

Think about it. Wow dude,lighten the fuck up.

Oh, and if you're bitching about illegal immigration...think about it. You're technically an illegal immigrant too.

Merge · Post by **Merge** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:00 am

Someone please point out where in the Constitution it says "Separation of Church and State". You won't find it, because it's not in there.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:31 pm

Look under the First Amendment. It says Congress shall establish no state religion. Note that it doesn't say "no state religion other than Christianity." No state religion means no religion. England had a state religion (Church of England). People came here to get away from that.
Oh, and the original line was, "...under a God" but that was zealously changed. The whole issue is a tempest-in-a-teacup, a bait-and-switch for the Religious Right, to keep their minds off the massive drubbing we're taking in the world at large.
I think it's both sad and hilarious how people are offended by my secular views. Like I threaten them by just being me.
"I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose Freewill."---->JMS

Merge · Post by **Merge** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:41 am

I know what the Constitution states, I asked someone to point out where the phrase "Separation of Church and State" is located. Lots of people like to throw that phrase around, but it's still not in there. It does say that Congress shall not establish a given religion, and I agree, that is why people left England. However, putting up a Nativity Scene isn't establishing a religion. It's celebrating a holiday that we've celebrated for a long, long time.

By the way, I'm not offended by your secular views. You have the right to your opinion, just as I have a right to mine. I see nothing wrong with a nice, zesty debate.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:52 am

Okay, kinda spouted off my religious views, or lack thereof. It wasn't really directed at anyone in particular, and really has little bearing in the subject being debated. Duly noted, and I apologize.---->JMS

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