What's Fair ?

[butthead]

We recently started a band. in addition to my own rig, I'm also supplying the PA and lights and am getting all the gigs. We are getting in the vicinity of $300 to $350 per gig. I feel it's not fair to me that the other members are receiving as much as me when they're using my gear to make money, don't always show up when it's time to set up and are not making any effort to get gigs. I'm not whining...but am starting to resent this. My question is, how would the rest of you handle this situation in an equitable manner that would be fair to all members?

[tornandfrayed]

Ah maybe it's just me but have you said anything to them? In a band the split is always even. If you have a grip take it up with them and see what they say.

And this is not the best way to start a band. It is sort of weird to bring this up on RP, does sort of sound whiny.

[butthead]

Yeah, you're right.... sounds like I'm sniveling. Just get bitchy when I gotta replace stuff at my expense and bust my balls setting up alone. Maybe that's what I get for not laying down some guidelines at the beginning.

[DirtySanchez]

Leave your PA and lights at home, pay out of your nightly earnings, then split the remaining $30 between all band members.

Usually one dude does own the PA.

But, tornandfrayed is right, talk to the dudes in your band about the whole effort thing. As far as the whole " I own the PA so I'm entitled to more $$"
I'd keep that to yourself, no offense but, you're coming across very selfish, and that shit doesn't fly in a band unless you're maybe Ted Nugent or Glenn Danzig.

[bassist_25]

This is one reason that I prefer to hire production. On one hand, it does limit the rooms that you can play, and it does increase your overhead, which oftentimes, is overhead a club owner isn't willing to pay for if you're a new band; on the other hand, there are no issues on who owes who what or who actually owns the PA. For some smaller gigs, we run a vocal PA. Each member owns pieces that they bring with them to the gig that night (e.g., I own the power amp and mains, Rob owns the board, Randy brings the tripods, etc.). One thing I have never done and will not do is go in with band members on a PA. That always ends up being a cluster-fornication. When the band breaks up or if a member leaves, then it becomes a problem of who actually owns what percentage of the PA. If you are good friends, you can possibly buy each other out, but that often doesn't happen. It's best to own individual components of a PA if things are done that way. I would have an issue with the members not showing up to help out though.

Actually, I prefer to have one person being the booker. If you have three other guys out there booking, there's bound to be a double-booking or miscommunication. Besides, some people just aren't good at booking. It's good if the other guys are out there networking, but ultimately, it should just be one person that makes the official agreement on pay and writes the date down.

What would I do in your situation? I would talk to the guys about coming early to setup the PA. I would then ask for a certain percentage of the night's pay to keep for PA maintenance and repair. Make sure that the money can be accounted for, so nobody thinks that you're skimming from the kitty.

[m2helmet]

Now we're talking! Good communication within a band is vital!

[DirtySanchez]

Yeah, you're right.... sounds like I'm sniveling. Just get bitchy when I gotta replace stuff at my expense and bust my balls setting up alone. Maybe that's what I get for not laying down some guidelines at the beginning.

Now you're making things a little more clear. If something breaks everyone should kick in. In fedup we're not doing this for a second job, so all of our money goes into a band fund, that way when we need to order merch, record, travel, or replace neccessary equipment we can do so.

[bassist4life2004]

Good points paul. With Echo Chamber, we all buy our parts of the PA system, for instance, I own the snake, rack box, and a few other smaller pieces, where as some of the other members own some of the speakers, some of the amps, and we keep a list of what we purchased with our own money as well as our share of the band money. If anything happens to the band, we can each look at the list and say "Ok, i have this, this, this, and this.

As for your situation butthead (dont know your real name), i dont know what advice to offer, we were in a similar boat a while back, then just gave up on dividing the money up into percentages as to who owns more of the PA. It became too much of a hassle and started tearing the band apart. My advice would be to do a setup incentive with your other band members, basically, if you show up to set up, you get paid more for your time, if everyone shows up, you get the same amount of money. That normally cures the laziness.

[bassist4life2004]

Yeah, you're right.... sounds like I'm sniveling. Just get bitchy when I gotta replace stuff at my expense and bust my balls setting up alone. Maybe that's what I get for not laying down some guidelines at the beginning.

Now you're making things a little more clear. If something breaks everyone should kick in. In fedup we're not doing this for a second job, so all of our money goes into a band fund, that way when we need to order merch, record, travel, or replace neccessary equipment we can do so.

Holy shit, 2 times in one week ive agreed with you, this is a new record.


Gotta........flame.......sanchez.......haha

[DirtySanchez]

When you ramble as much as I do, you're bound to make sense once in a while. Even if it's by pure chance.

[songsmith]

I hear ya. I've always been okay with using my gear, on a per-gig basis, your wear and tear are negligible, and I'd have had to use most of it anyway as a solo act. I'm a gearhead anyway, and actually enjoy the mechanics of setting it up and getting a good sound. I'd insist, however that the others help with load-in, placement, tear-down, etc. Fair is fair.
There are advantages to being in your position. I have a standing rule that if any of my bandmates are visibly drunk during a performance, I can and will simply take my toys and go home. Wow Johnny, you say, that's kinda harshing our mellow. We're all grownups, and legal to drink. Too bad. Drunks + Microphones = Karaoke. Have I mentioned how I feel about karaoke? And while it's unprofessional to end a show early, so is stinking up the stage I work so hard to get to. There are plenty of sober guys who want to take our place. Enough about that, I'm old, and standing on a soapbox hurts my feet.
The other benefit to owning the gear is that you are more familiar with it. You know better than everyone else that, for instance, you need to push the meter a little into the red to get enough gain on the snare channel, or that even though the EQ is set flat, there's a 6.3k peak that's dying to take off. When something poops the bed, you're the cat that knows what's happening.
Added responsibilty has added benefits, though not always monetary. I just like knowing I did my share and maybe a little more. It's part of the quest to be better than I was before. One group of people may not notice my effort, but someone else may be just biding their time waiting for me to be free for their project. I'm simply not a talented guy, but I bust my ass to be able to do what I do, and I'm all swelled up with pride that people ask me to share a stage with them. THAT'S the payoff.----->JMS

[MeYatch]

butthead, I feel where you're coming from. It can get irritating when you are forking out lots of hard earned money while you're band mates sit back and ride on your efforts. However, you have the advantage that you're PA puts you a leg up in band auditions, you can take your equipment and go elsewhere if you choose. I'd stay clear of trying to split the money up differently. Its just more hassle than its worth. I would however insist on the rest of the band helping you haul, load in, and load out, and setup whatever you are comfortable letting them set up. If they refuse to do that, then you really are just providing sound for them, and I would charge them appropriate rates.
In the end your band is your band, nobody else can set the rules for you, and every situation is different. I think taking a small cut to set aside for PA repairs is reasonable. However, if you're Nady main breaks and you replace it with a JBL pro with band money, its not exactly fair for you to continue to own the higher priced speaker. I'd make sure whatever you decide you discuss it thouroughly with your band mates. I know it sounds harsh, but I'd even consider getting it in writing. Tempers really start to flare up when bands break up, and especially when someone gets fired.

By the way, what kind of PA are we talking about, and what is your position in the band? A lead singer owning a small vocal PA is a completely different matter than a sideman owning a full PA.

[lonewolf]

People who don't show up to load or unload on a regular basis need special treatment.

If it becomes a problem in your band, attach a price tag to each load/unload, per person, say $10. If they don't show up to unload, they get docked $10. Simple enough.

After all, we aren't communists, are we?

[Rich]

I try to do this.... Everyone gets a "even" cut..... After "expenses" are payed... "Expenses" are the "bands" expense .... Made by or because of the "band" so the "band" should cover those "right off the top". And I mean like website, advertising and such. Whenever they come due. They benefit the whole band... "PA"- I own the PA. If something "breaks" (which it shouldn't, but shit happens.) the "band" should replace that piece. Unless it's something really exspensive, ie. power amp. Because I'm the sole "owner"... And that wouldn't be fair (Then we will discuss it. But 9 chances out of 10. I'd make it right myself.) BUT.... without the PA the band doesn't go on... The band "broke it" as a "unit" the "band" should pay for it as a "unit"... I don't "charge" for the "band" to use the PA. All I ask is that the "band" maintains the up keep so we can keep playing and doing what we want....

As far as them not helping.... Pay someone else who will, out of your "gig" money... I'm sure there's someone out there who needs a few $$$ and is interested in "helping" in the "band scene"...

[VENTGtr]

I agree with Paul that everyone chucking in to buy the PA & associated gear is mostly
just asking for trouble later. I bought all of our PA gear/Lights, etc. but now, when
something needs replaced or something along those lines, it comes out of everyone's
pay for a night. Their few bucks that night is a small contribution for them having a
PA every week (If your people scoff, tell them they can pay you however much to
rent from you every week).

For example, we just got new speaker cables. I told everyone upfront that we needed,
and were getting, them and we would use part of a night's pay to cover the cost. They
know I'm not about to go spending money pointlessly anyway, so they're cool with it.

What it does give YOU, since you're doing most of this, is the mental security that
you know what's up with gear. Having to count on other people, some outside of
your realm of influence can, potentially, screw you. Since you're handling booking,
it's your name that's tied to this.

For the most part, everyone should be responsible for whatever their "tasks" require.
I don't ask anyone to pay for my strings, etc. and I don't pay for our drummer's sticks
(Mercifully. He goes through them like mad).

The only time it becomes an issue is when someone needs something and just doesn't
get it (Yes, this has happened recently with us). Normally, then a discussion needs to
take place. If need be, take control of the situation. If it's something as small as $20
cable, get it and tell everyone that it's coming out of the night's pay and why.

That being said, all of our mics (Except one), mic stands, etc. are mine just because
when someone leaves I want to know we're still going to have the gear we need.

If someone has a problem when they leave because they threw in a few bucks one
night for cables they've been making money off of for every week since, you're better
off without them and they need to be reminded how much time and work you're putting
in to book, the cost of everything else, etc.

I also agree that there should be one person handling booking. It's not a fun job, but
it's necessary. One contact makes things a lot easier for everyone from you to venue
owners. Just be sure that you're good about letting everyone know what's up with your
schedule.

They'll still forget and you'll still get a call saying "Where are we playing Saturday?",
but do your best. I print out our sched and try to keep it as standardized as possible.
If there's something odd coming up, I point it out a few times so they're all aware.

Though I've not bumped into it for quite a while (At least not where it's become a regular
problem), I think Lonewolf has a great idea. If you're doing the extra loading, etc. make
them pay for it. They may not like it and there could be an argument, but it's better than
letting it strew until it becomes a band-breaker.

BUT, keep in mind not to get too militant about it. Someone having to leave early for
whatever reason or getting there late once is just something that happens. Don't
blow it out of proportion. If they have a valid reason (Like being stuck at their day job
to the point where they can't get to a venue until later) then you, and the others, have to
decide how you feel about it. Personally, if that's the case, that's just the way it is and
I like that person and having them in the band, I'd accept it and say it's a small price to
pay for their involvement. If it's just that they're late, or avoiding getting there to set up,
go with L.W.'s idea.

[Punkinhead]

You do need to talk to them about helping set up and tear down. It shouldn't be the responsibility of one person unless they are paid to do it. The money for fixing the PA might be better taken from gig money. It's really as simple as, "I don't have the dough to fix it, and we can't play without it."

Also, this is something better taken up w/ them and not on here, as has been said.

[bassist_25]

I try to do this.... Everyone gets a "even" cut..... After "expenses" are payed... "Expenses" are the "bands" expense .... Made by or because of the "band" so the "band" should cover those "right off the top". And I mean like website, advertising and such. Whenever they come due. They benefit the whole band... "PA"- I own the PA. If something "breaks" (which it shouldn't, but shit happens.) the "band" should replace that piece. Unless it's something really exspensive, ie. power amp. Because I'm the sole "owner"... And that wouldn't be fair (Then we will discuss it. But 9 chances out of 10. I'd make it right myself.) BUT.... without the PA the band doesn't go on... The band "broke it" as a "unit" the "band" should pay for it as a "unit"... I don't "charge" for the "band" to use the PA. All I ask is that the "band" maintains the up keep so we can keep playing and doing what we want....

As far as them not helping.... Pay someone else who will, out of your "gig" money... I'm sure there's someone out there who needs a few $$$ and is interested in "helping" in the "band scene"...

Wow, that's a lot of quotation marks.

[Banned]

Great topic I own Pa equipment and my guy/guitar slinger own's some. It is very expensive. We also supply lights transport and set up. He does all bookings . He is very good at all these tasks. It does require alot of time and energy. The Drummer and his wife provides a nice place to practice. She even feeds the gang. ++++d I purchase ads She bought tee shirts and business cards. All these things contribute to the band. When it comes to setting up she is right there with him helping. Even before I was in a band I supported him by helping setup, Webpages, making flyers and promoting his bands. I think all efforts need to be looked at when having a discussion about fairness. It sounds like you are a team player and want to do what is fair for the group. Beware some people don't play fair they come and go. The faster the better. They will suck the life out of you and move on to another sucker. They will use you and your resources. Good people will want to even the load. Choose you mate's wisely. Choose like in kind players. Do background checks it's harder to get things right after the fact. Yes this is a business and should be treated a such. In the mean time Live Laugh and Love Life is short. Debbie

Good Luck

[Rich]

Thanks "b_25"..... I learned something "new" today..

[Banned]

Welcome aboard, REDARROWROCKER.

Here's an idea based around lonewolf's "make 'em pay" concept. How about making the PA the "Fifth Beatle"? Give it an equal cut every night, the same as any other member. Then divide it up among whoever helped set up/tear down/transport the PA for that show.

That way no one gets punished with a pay cut. Instead, they are opting out of some extra bling. Some will be perfectly happy to sacrifice a few bucks in exchange for a lighter workload, and that's fine.

BTW, a major thumbs up to the single booker thing.

[DirtySanchez]

Wow, that's a lot of quotation marks.

For some reason I am picturing somebody talking and making the quotation marks hand gesture every third word. I am literally laughing out loud at work and people are looking at me like I'm an idiot.

[Rich]

DAMN IT!!! Ya caught me!!!!

[RobTheDrummer]

I try to do this.... Everyone gets a "even" cut..... After "expenses" are payed... "Expenses" are the "bands" expense .... Made by or because of the "band" so the "band" should cover those "right off the top". And I mean like website, advertising and such. Whenever they come due. They benefit the whole band... "PA"- I own the PA. If something "breaks" (which it shouldn't, but shit happens.) the "band" should replace that piece. Unless it's something really exspensive, ie. power amp. Because I'm the sole "owner"... And that wouldn't be fair (Then we will discuss it. But 9 chances out of 10. I'd make it right myself.) BUT.... without the PA the band doesn't go on... The band "broke it" as a "unit" the "band" should pay for it as a "unit"... I don't "charge" for the "band" to use the PA. All I ask is that the "band" maintains the up keep so we can keep playing and doing what we want....

As far as them not helping.... Pay someone else who will, out of your "gig" money... I'm sure there's someone out there who needs a few $$$ and is interested in "helping" in the "band scene"...

[metalchurch]

LOL! That's funny

[Rich]

!! Nice !!